Scimitar 21ft Saro one design

[David Balkwill]

This was what I meant !

 

[yfi]

This was what I meant !View attachment 102663

Dramatic,that looks like Dickie's yard at Bangor N Wales.
Slave Girl was I believe owned by Lawrence Roberts and was very successful.Lawrence was an employee of Saro @"Saunders Roe"

 

[David Balkwill]

We must have a chat some time so I can get some more of these memories on file. Of course a "national championship" would be the perfect setting if enough people show some interest.

 

[K9787]

Rudder bearing(s).
The stock of Shashka's rudder is seized to what looks like a brass bearing at the top, at deck level. As a result the bearing rotates as the stock does. The boat had been abandoned in the open for years before I bought her which is presumably what allowed the bearing surface to corrode. Penetrating oil has had no effect so far.
As the (presumed) bearing rotates I would like to know how it was originally secured in position. Does anyone know?
In addition there is a grease nipple 1/3 of the way down from the top of the tube surrounding the stock between the underside of the deck and the hull. Was this nipple fitted to all boats? I cannot see any evidence of is a second bearing in its vicinity.
Does the stock have the support of a second bearing? If so where is it positioned?
I should be grateful for any info on any of these points.

 

[David Balkwill]

Sunshine's rudder was moved aft by about 30cm durung the conversion, so I don't think anything there is standard. I certainly don't have any photos of those details. Here are just a couple of drawings showing a little of what you are trying to find. The hand drawn section is of a repair to the way the rudder post is fixed to the rudder but it seems to show a top bearing that's just fitting to the rudder post with no shoulder or fixings. So keep trying with the penetrating oil (ATF plus acetone is good) and try some gentle persuasion with a big hammer.


Well actually, now I'm looking closer could those be grub screws from each side holding the ring to the shaft ?

 

[TSB240]

I can't help with the bearing design or removal. I do remember our original scimitar had the first rudder tube failure sometime during our ownership. It was not a good design as it was just a hollow galvanised steel tube.
I was on the helm when the tube finally failed just above the rudder with rust perforation.
It was replaced with a solid phosphour bronze shaft that was machined down to fit inside the tube as in the hand sketch.
It made for an interesting rudderless sail back to our mooring.
In those days all the boats carried a very long sweep for auxiliary propulsion and for pushing off if you ran aground. It came in to use as a trailing steerboard.
All Scimitars had rowlock holes fitted at their maximum beam. These needed a cork in them when not in use otherwise you could ship a lot of water through them when hard pressed. The rowlock holes were also used for attaching the factory supplied drying out legs.
They want blocking up as the boat will flood on an incoming tide if left on her side on a drying mooring or anchor.

 

[TSB240]

This was what I meant !View attachment 102663

I don't think it was No 1. I am 99 per cent sure it was hull no 13 sail number 14!

 

[yfi]

Slave Girl was one of the Scimitars that we shipped to Gib in 71

 

[yfi]

 

[yfi]

1970 Brochure

 

[Matt J]

View attachment 102283

Very interesting to see this; Number 6 Saladin is actually one of the 2 boats we have taken ownership off this year and are currently undergoing a full restoration - Saladin is the boat we are currently working on and can be seen www.facebook.com/breninadventures

Matt

 

[Matt J]

Matt,
Sounds like a great program for your centre and I agree that the Scimitars will be a good support for teaching without being too frightening for beginners or people with restricted mobility.
How are you off for sails ? I have a few jibs which I can send you. Let me know and I'll take some pictures and give you some dimensions.
As for the idea of a get together, I'd love to be involved. Bit of a long and uncertain trip with Covid problems, so it's too early to be positive, but in principle I'll come with Sunshine.
I have contact details for some of the boats I have identified so I will pass on the idea and we'll see who's interested.
I have been talking with the CVDRA people about coming over next year for one of their events with an old Moth. It would be good for my travelling arrangements if the two events could be on two consecutive weekends so I could come with both boats at the same time. But first things first, you've got some work to do, and our governments need to sort out whether we can travel or not.
So let's keep in touch and keep thinking.
Regards.
David

Hi David, sorry have just seen your response.

Jib Sails may be useful - we have 2 but not in the best condition. We have a few Genoa's but we don't really need sails of this size to teach intro sailing for children or vulnerable groups.

I've had a chat with a few committee members from the Club about an event and first indications suggest they would be keen - but as you say all depends on Covid and travel restrictions at the moment. Hopefully the new year will bring better news.

Matt

 

[K9787]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my rudder stock query. It looks as if the original design showed a plain bearing at deck level, the only other secure point being in steel shoe on the keel. I'd still be interested to hear from anyone else.

 

[TSB240]

No 14 is for sale.
Saro Scimitar - Classic Sailing Boat – Boats – Bucklesham | Facebook Marketplace

 

[erich27]

I can probably tell you anything you need to know about them. My father had No 9 Anina.She was based in the Menai Strait for most of the 60s. The class was doing well with fleets growing there, Abersoch, River Crouch, and River Dart. She was designed as a plastic XBoat replacement. They were made in the now long closed Saunders Roe (Saro) flying boat servicing facility near Beaumaris with the exception of a couple moulded by Ferranti in Bangor after the moulds had been sold to them or Dickies.
Dickies decided to churn out plastic copies of the very pretty local Conwy fife ODs and this effectively killed the local class off. There were some attempts to revive the class at Port Dinorwic sailing club but these were short lived. My brother still has No 53 Tryphena stored in a garage and she has been fully restored.
He designed and I built a four wheeled drop chassis design trailer for trailing this boat for which he still has cad designs and box section steel cutting plans.
The boat was the wettest boat I have ever had the displeasure to sail. Racing in any wind against tide meant continuous use of a pump and or extensive bailing with a bucket. If the boat had any water in it the lack of any forward bulkhead meant any return leg down wind was fraught with potential of driving the boat under any boat stopping waves! I know there is one still lost in a big hole near Gallows Point Beamaris!
I have never seen any of the original sail plans with a three quarter rig other than one developed much much later in the class history by a lone voice owner. The huge cost of replacing mast and sails was more than enough to encourage more potential owners of a plastic Conwy Fife and the eventual demise of the class at the RAYC.

The substantial mast head rig was virtually indestructible. It was well supported by twin backstays and dual lowers and there was very limited potential for encouraging any mast bend or sail flattening. In our first year of ownership we had only a standard main , a storm jib, a huge balloon spinney and a Genoa that had so much overlap in it that even the helm couldn't see behind even from the aft helm position. Totally impractical for short tacking or racing in any fleet especially with a family crew. I know the Spinnaker was cut down in size to about a third of it's original area. The big Genoa was banned even though the performance off wind on a reach was astounding!
The boat was offered with a cuddy for Cruising that could have provided some respite for any forward crew who were affectionately christened the sponges.

There was indeed a sailing school at Holyhead and also one at Gibralter that used these boats for training.

When we were refurbishing no 53 we kept an eye out for second hand bargains and an old HH sailing school boat came up for sale complete with trailer on E Bay.
The boat was a wreck the trailer was just about road worthy. I am sorry to say the hull was beyond repair and was cut up. The lead keel was sold off at a very good price! The scrap man had never seen 3/4 of a ton of lead in one single compact lump.

In our ownership the only major problem was the total loss of a rudder. The original build incorporated a galvanized steel tubular rudder shaft encapsulated in the gf blade.I was at the helm when the steel tube finally gave in to corrosion with the tube shearing off just below the hull at the top of the rudder. I dont know if later boats had the same design but ours had a new rudder moulded and fitted using a solid phosphor bronze shaft.

In our ownership we have enjoyed hours of safe sailing in sheltered waters. It can be driven easily by a 3hp ob using the factory option side mount bracket. We were also quite profficient at using a single sweep oar on calm days. It also came in very useful for pushing off after running aground! The keel has a large flat area on its bottom and the boat will dry out upright on it unless encouraged to lean over. LEGS could be fitted using the rowlock holes in the side deck coaming. it is important that the rowlock holes are bunged should you ever deliberately leave the boat to dry out on her side. The small diameter hole allows a very large amount of water to ingress whilst the boat lifts off its side on a returning tide.

I recently had a casual conversation with a visitor passing my boat in Port Dinorwic marina. It turned out that he was the Manager of Ferranti the GF builders of many small dinghies based in Bangor. He remembered the day that two members of the then Class association from the Dart came to view the hull and deck moulds with a view to having more boats moulded. The moulds had been carefully preserved and were offered at a very very low price to the CA. The bosses also told them there would be no negotiation on the price. They mistakenly thought that returning after a long lunch they would be able to take away the moulds for their own use at their bargain offer of £1.00 .The manager had them ready for them but cut up in to pieces to reflect the value they had offered.

Steve

Found the reference above to the demise of the SCIMITAR hull moulds quite amusing as the cutting up of the moulds displays the vindictive attitude of the Company, rather than donating them FoC to a good cause instead of destroying them ! the GF manager was called Brian Osborne

 

[Matt J]

Afternoon All,

We're getting on with our 2 Scimitar restorations.

Has anybody fitted a small outboard to their scimitar, something like a 2.5 hp for emergency use or even for using from mooring to jetty?

If so, how/where was your mounting bracket? Looking at the transom position I'm not sure if there is room for the outboard to tilt up on out of the way when not in use. (We'd prefer to keep the outboard permanently on the bracket ready for use if needed)

FYI; these boats are going to be use with Disabled and Vulnerable group hence having the an outboard ready for use will be helpful.

Thanks
Matt

 

[Rum Run]

Would mounting a spring loaded parallelogram type bracket on the transom plus the tilt on the outboard clamp work? This was the arrangement on my old Hunter19 and that was fine. Drop the tilt, push down against the springs and start the engine.

 

[Rappey]

"Tinker" , hull no 57, registration no 54 is on a mooring in portsmouth harbour, looking a little neglected but appears to be sound.

 

[skua164]

Afternoon All,

We're getting on with our 2 Scimitar restorations.

Has anybody fitted a small outboard to their scimitar, something like a 2.5 hp for emergency use or even for using from mooring to jetty?

If so, how/where was your mounting bracket? Looking at the transom position I'm not sure if there is room for the outboard to tilt up on out of the way when not in use. (We'd prefer to keep the outboard permanently on the bracket ready for use if needed)

FYI; these boats are going to be use with Disabled and Vulnerable group hence having the an outboard ready for use will be helpful.

Thanks
Matt

I have a Rustler 24 which uses a side mounted bracket you have to put on and then attach the Outboard to it ( I have a 3.5hp 2 stroke), then reverse the process when you actually want to sail. It's a lot of faff to be honest, i've used it less than half a dozen times in the three years I've owned the Boat, mainly for the rare occasions I need to go alongside the Pontoon. I sail on and off the Mooring.

here is a link to the Rustler bracket and fitting on the side deck. I'm glad mine came with the Boat when I became the second owner. IIRC the list price from Rustlers in 2008 was £ 400+ I'm sure something could be fabricated much more cheaply.

https://newimages.yachtworld.com/2/2/6/6/0/2266074_10.jpg?1285232686000

 

[K9787]

Afternoon All,

We're getting on with our 2 Scimitar restorations.

Has anybody fitted a small outboard to their scimitar, something like a 2.5 hp for emergency use or even for using from mooring to jetty?

If so, how/where was your mounting bracket? Looking at the transom position I'm not sure if there is room for the outboard to tilt up on out of the way when not in use. (We'd prefer to keep the outboard permanently on the bracket ready for use if needed)

FYI; these boats are going to be use with Disabled and Vulnerable group hence having the an outboard ready for use will be helpful.

Thanks
Matt

Hi Matt
A 2.5hp Mariner weighs 17kg, Not sure what your proposed o/b bracket would weigh but can I suggest you hang their combined weights over the stern as I suspect they would have an adverse on the boat's fore and aft trim. My 20 kg steel rudder upset the trim badly and its weight was effective several feet closer to the c/g than the transom. In addition: can you see yourself ( or one of the disabled students) kneeling on the after deck to start the engine?
A faff it may be but I reckon Rustlers's solution is the best.
I do have what I believe is an original builder's o/b bracket. I think is designed to clamp onto the side (like the Rustler). It is very heavy but I am happy to give it to anyone who would like to collect from North Kent (when legal to do so).
Good luck with the restoration