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Sailing allowed in lockdown

lustyd

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So do supermarkets. All packed with people every day. It’s the only entertainment some families have by the look of it
 

RJJ

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As soon as the twice daily jamboree outside the local schools starts up again I will lose all respect for any remaining lockdown rules with regard to staying away alone in my own property. I'm fine with the kids, and the teachers have my sympathy, but the unmasked crowds hugging one another and chatting for an hour twice a day? Not so much.
Having done collection and drop-off twice a day through the autumn term and for half the summer term, I can say (1) that mask wearing was actively encouraged if not informally "enforced" by the school and the parents (2) the only hugging was between parents and their own children (3) the pavement was chalked out (4) drop-offs were timed so that nobody ever waited more than ten minutes. Not that chatting for half an hour at a well-ventilated distance bears any meaningful infection risk.

I don't recognise the behaviour you describe. You may have seen it once or twice or something but unless you've been stalking school gates, I don't think you're in a position to say it's widespread.
If you had or have a concern with a particular school, I suggest raising it with them.

but whatever excuse works for you, I suppose. I think it's mostly nonsense anyway, so enjoy the freedom you're reclaiming for yourself.
 

lustyd

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I live next to a school so see all of this behaviour twice a day. I also pass other schools and see it there too. We’ll be seeing raised stats by end of March again I’m sure.
 

Little Grebe

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Buying essential items like food is allowed. McDonald's is technically food. Our local one looks busier than I've ever seen it
The regulations explicitly allow leaving home in order to visit a businesses which is permitted to trade so that includes take aways, car washes, garden centres, 'click and collect', etc.

The concept of 'essential journey' is another one that is not included in the regulations but none the less is often mentioned so if were to take the position as advocated below that guidance, dictionaries, press conferences, etc were considered over and above legislation then trips to most of these would be a risky proposition.


In my own area of law, I can think of half a dozen tests that have been created by judges over the years to interpret legislation that was not sufficiently precise (or more often, did not foresee the particular circumstances of a case). We are a common law jurisdiction - much of our laws are very much created by judges as they go along and always have been. Judges do look at government guidance as an aid to interpretation (but are not bound by it) and whilst looking at a dictionary (as suggested above) is one known tool, it isn't the only one.

Whilst much of this is interesting discussion whilst we're all sat at home bored witless, the simple answer is that you have to make your own decisions on what you do based on your own interpretation of the law and (yes) guidance. You decide your own personal risk tolerance for being stopped by the police if you go out, and what your response to their questioning will be. You may find that you are not stopped at all. You may be stopped and have a bobby who is very understanding (perhaps excessively so). You may be stopped and find that you are given the 9th degree and he/she wants to issue an FPN. Your decision then is whether to quietly accept it and move on, or take the matter to court and put your side across. Very very few cases will get to that stage and so whilst this is somewhat entertaining, I doubt any of us are going to find ourselves discussing this with a judge.
As a reminder the reference to 'looking at a dictionary' was for a word (local) that only exists in the legislation in terms of local authorities rather than anything to do with sections of the legislation being discussed here and as I have pointed out if it was a genuine oversight the legislators have had plenty of time to correct that particularly as ministers were threatening to amend the legislation a month back but evidently chose not to do so.

Anyway, much better to go visit the park instead as these media reports from last weekend show. :unsure:

 
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lustyd

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Given the police have explicitely stated they won't enforce the word local it's completely moot anyway. Without the Police I can't see a way you could end up in front of a judge for them to decide either way. In any case, after a year I'm sure everyone is behaving well and understands how they should act. With the exception of the truly stupid there are very few infractions in the news, and the guidance will be changing in a month according to future-news outlet the BBC this morning. Now that the BBC have made the announcement I'm sure Borris will scribble it down and read it for us later today verbatim.
 

Little Grebe

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Given the police have explicitely stated they won't enforce the word local it's completely moot anyway. Without the Police I can't see a way you could end up in front of a judge for them to decide either way. In any case, after a year I'm sure everyone is behaving well and understands how they should act. With the exception of the truly stupid there are very few infractions in the news, and the guidance will be changing in a month according to future-news outlet the BBC this morning. Now that the BBC have made the announcement I'm sure Borris will scribble it down and read it for us later today verbatim.
Despite the weather not actually being that great here it seemed every man and his dog were out and about this weekend.

Evidently many people are quietly getting on with their lives regardless of what is written on internet forums, I think I will join them in that.
 

RJJ

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I live next to a school so see all of this behaviour twice a day. I also pass other schools and see it there too. We’ll be seeing raised stats by end of March again I’m sure.
I'll remind you of that. For posterity's sake, what exactly are you predicting?

If there's a smallish uptick in cases, of course, but within what the NHS will be able to cope with (noting occupancy is falling fast) then there's the question of "so what".
 
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SailingDog

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I'll remind you of that. For posterity's sake, what exactly are you predicting?

If there's a smallish uptick in cases, of course, but within what the NHS will be able to cope with (noting occupancy is falling fast) then there's the question of "so what".
Will you be so cavalier if it's one of your own that needs medical attention, gearing up hospital departments from Covid wards to other specialties doesn't happen at the flick of a switch.
Another consideration may be medical staff holidays, if holidays aren't taken then they are lost I imagine there are quite a few medical staff that are ready for a break from work just now and will be keen not to lose holidays.
 

SimonFa

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Despite the weather not actually being that great here it seemed every man and his dog were out and about this weekend.

Evidently many people are quietly getting on with their lives regardless of what is written on internet forums, I think I will join them in that.
Mobility data for London is starting to rise quite quickly, especially buses:

The Spectator Covid Tracker | London | The Spectator

Bottom left chart.

A flick through Google mobility trends show similar rises in other cities.

https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

As I've said before on this one, the government is going took those union reps in the 70s who were seen rushing to get in front of a walkout so it looked like they were leading.
 

RJJ

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Will you be so cavalier if it's one of your own that needs medical attention, gearing up hospital departments from Covid wards to other specialties doesn't happen at the flick of a switch.
Another consideration may be medical staff holidays, if holidays aren't taken then they are lost I imagine there are quite a few medical staff that are ready for a break from work just now and will be keen not to lose holidays.
I take your point taken about holidays, but I'm guessing (only guessing) that's in the plan.

The goal of lockdown is to flatten the curve and stop hospitals getting overwhelmed. It's not to stop people going to hospital, ever. So (and remember we're looking a fortnight ahead)
  1. "cases" are down to half of the mid-Oct level
  2. that level of "cases" didn't of itself lead to unmanageable patient flows two weeks later; it was the subsquent growth that did it
  3. that level of "cases" is against more than double the testing, so actually infection now should be well below mid-Oct
  4. admissions are down to around half the April peak, at the mid-Oct level or so
  5. occupancy is falling fast (and in a couple more weeks, should be down to the mid-Oct level)
  6. the vaccine is giving protection to the strong majority of hospital admissions (that's based only on the over-65s; before even noting the additional vaccination of the clinically vulnerable)
  7. the vaccine is also having some effect on transmission
  8. meanwhile, since the autumn, we have an additional (very conservative) 5pc of the population with infection-induced immunity; that's just those who have had positive tests; a more realistic estimate could be 10-20pc plus whatever there is from last spring
  9. meanwhile, this spring is just around the corner and coronaviruses / respiratory illnesses in general fall away in spring.
So far from being "cavalier", I think it's unreasonable not to start lifting restrictions. It's reasonable, to be cautious, to take a step-by-step approach and track the effects of each step.
 

lustyd

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I agree that step by step is the right approach and I agree we need to start opening things up. I disagree that we should start with the most disruptive and dangerous activity outside of pubs. There are plenty of things we could start with for a soft start. Twice daily mass congregations and mixing of hundreds of people isn’t what I’d have chosen. For clarity I’m not talking about the kids and using research about whether kids are at risk Divert’s from the real problem outside the gates. Have teachers even been given priority vaccines yet?
 

st599

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Another consideration may be medical staff holidays, if holidays aren't taken then they are lost I imagine there are quite a few medical staff that are ready for a break from work just now and will be keen not to lose holidays.
Not this year, Alok Sharma announced that persons in receipt of official key worker status could carry this year's holiday over and use it over the next 2 years.

This does raise other staffing issues, and presumably some backroom issues in applying it to some people on a payroll system, but there shouldn't be any loss.
 

lustyd

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Never believe anything Alok Sharma says. Unfortunately that is my local MP and he has what can only be described as a poor record. It's a shame, normally I'd be inclined to vote for the party but I'll never again vote for the man.
 

RJJ

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I agree that step by step is the right approach and I agree we need to start opening things up. I disagree that we should start with the most disruptive and dangerous activity outside of pubs. There are plenty of things we could start with for a soft start. Twice daily mass congregations and mixing of hundreds of people isn’t what I’d have chosen. For clarity I’m not talking about the kids and using research about whether kids are at risk Divert’s from the real problem outside the gates. Have teachers even been given priority vaccines yet?
If they are "mass congregating" and "mixing hundreds of people" they aren't doing it right and you should raise your concerns with the school.

I'm in London. At drop off we are in proximity (2m spaced) with one family ahead, one behind, (usually the same family every day) for max ten minutes (usually less than five). That creates a snake down the pavement, like in many schools, and no more or less than you see at cafes, outside supermarkets etc. You see bigger and closer crowds at the park gates, and nobody serious reckons those are dens of infection either.

Before christmas, two year groups were sent home for a precautionary fortnight each, due to a single family having a positive test. There wasn't one further case in either year group.

There being no evidence that teachers are at greater risk than the general population, the scientific advice remains to jab those who are at greater risk.
 

Never Grumble

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If they are "mass congregating" and "mixing hundreds of people" they aren't doing it right and you should raise your concerns with the school.

I'm in London. At drop off we are in proximity (2m spaced) with one family ahead, one behind, (usually the same family every day) for max ten minutes (usually less than five). That creates a snake down the pavement, like in many schools, and no more or less than you see at cafes, outside supermarkets etc. You see bigger and closer crowds at the park gates, and nobody serious reckons those are dens of infection either.

Before christmas, two year groups were sent home for a precautionary fortnight each, due to a single family having a positive test. There wasn't one further case in either year group.

There being no evidence that teachers are at greater risk than the general population, the scientific advice remains to jab those who are at greater risk.
My sons junior school reduces the risk further by staggered start times over a thirty minute period, which ten minute slot you fit into goes by surname. The same happens at the end of the day. They stay in their year bubbles during the day. Like yours there has been the occasional positive test, usually an adult at the school, those kids in that bubble had to stay at home for a fortnight, similarly there was no further cases identified. I am content that my sons school does all they can to minimise the risk and deal with things in a sensible manner as necessary, that's all we can ask for.
 

lustyd

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RJJ remind me when they open, I'll get you a picture. It's nothing like what you describe at any school local to me.
 

lustyd

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For the record, I'm quite certain some schools run this very well indeed. My point is that lots of them don't, and that poses considerably more risk than other banned activities which would offer a more sensible soft start.
 

SailingDog

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Not this year, Alok Sharma announced that persons in receipt of official key worker status could carry this year's holiday over and use it over the next 2 years.

This does raise other staffing issues, and presumably some backroom issues in applying it to some people on a payroll system, but there shouldn't be any loss.
That's what they may have said in the rarified air of Westminster on the ground my dil a qualified nurse is on holiday next week otherwise she would have lost the holiday.
Politicians lie like cheap watches.
 
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