Rot and seepage around stem post bolts

[PhilEWB]

I have been looking at buying a fairly recent (early 2000s) self-built Maurice Griffiths design triple keel boat. Having not owned a wooden boat before, I took note of advice on this, and other forums, about things to look out for - including the condition of the stem and steer posts and the state of the bilges.

It had a repair to the stem post and port side bow about 5 years ago, so I was concerned to see that there was some rot/spongy wood and evidence of a little seepage around 3 stem post bolts. -see the photo.

Before I think about putting in an offer and seeking professional advice and think I'd value your thoughts on how significant an issue this is. Thanks in anticipation.

 

[wombat88]

What are the bolts made of?

The picture really doesn't look that 'pretty'. The paintwork etc suggests that the thing has been poorly looked after, particularly if it is only 20 years old.

Approach with caution.

 

[Hacker]

If those bolts aren’t bronze, walk away rapidly!

 

[PhilEWB]

What are the bolts made of?

The picture really doesn't look that 'pretty'. The paintwork etc suggests that the thing has been poorly looked after, particularly if it is only 20 years old.

Approach with caution.

They looked like stainless steel. The impression I had was that this was part of the repair done 5 years ago. In the bilges (original) , the bolts are painted over, but there's no sign of any rot around them.

 

[PhilEWB]

If those bolts aren’t bronze, walk away rapidly!

Showing my ignorance.... Why is that?

 

[Tranona]

I feel for you, having just today bought a Griffiths designed boat (although this is GRP) and having owned a wooden built one for 40 odd years in the past. My immediate reaction is to run, or at least walk rapidly away. That looks in really awful nick for such a young boat, but difficult to actually advise without seeing it in the context of the whole boat. The thing with traditional wood construction it is relatively straightforward to repair that sort of damage, but if it was only repaired 5 years ago it does not say much for the person who did it!

You don't say what design it is, although I know of a few Lone Gulls built traditionally in recent years, nor where it is located. Do you have a link to the boat? If you have never owned a wooden boat then you are on the start of a steep learning curve. Despite my long experience I still learned a lot from surveyors in my recent search for a boat. If you are on the south coast then the guy to talk to is John Lilley of Sea Surveys in Dorset. He posts here from time to time on wooden boat matters.

In my search I was keen on having another wooden boat and looked at many not just Griffiths designs, and inevitably the ones in the best condition were not designs that appealed or met my specific needs so I fell back on what I know, the Golden Hind design which is built in either sheathed ply or GRP with sheathed wood deck and coachroof. Got right to actually agreeing to buy what I thought was a very sound all wood one, only for the survey to throw up unexpected rot, which although not particularly expensive to repair just alerted me to the risks of more appearing in the future. Hence deciding to go for a GRP hull.

Roundabout way of saying that taking on a wooden boat is a commitment way above owning a GRP one, so caution at this stage and establish exactly what you are taking on.

 

[PhilEWB]

What are the bolts made of?

The picture really doesn't look that 'pretty'. The paintwork etc suggests that the thing has been poorly looked after, particularly if it is only 20 years old.

Approach with caution.

Here's a closer view of one of the stem post bolts in the anchor locker.

I feel for you, having just today bought a Griffiths designed boat (although this is GRP) and having owned a wooden built one for 40 odd years in the past. My immediate reaction is to run, or at least walk rapidly away. That looks in really awful nick for such a young boat, but difficult to actually advise without seeing it in the context of the whole boat. The thing with traditional wood construction it is relatively straightforward to repair that sort of damage, but if it was only repaired 5 years ago it does not say much for the person who did it!

You don't say what design it is, although I know of a few Lone Gulls built traditionally in recent years, nor where it is located. Do you have a link to the boat? If you have never owned a wooden boat then you are on the start of a steep learning curve. Despite my long experience I still learned a lot from surveyors in my recent search for a boat. If you are on the south coast then the guy to talk to is John Lilley of Sea Surveys in Dorset. He posts here from time to time on wooden boat matters.

In my search I was keen on having another wooden boat and looked at many not just Griffiths designs, and inevitably the ones in the best condition were not designs that appealed or met my specific needs so I fell back on what I know, the Golden Hind design which is built in either sheathed ply or GRP with sheathed wood deck and coachroof. Got right to actually agreeing to buy what I thought was a very sound all wood one, only for the survey to throw up unexpected rot, which although not particularly expensive to repair just alerted me to the risks of more appearing in the future. Hence deciding to go for a GRP hull.

Roundabout way of saying that taking on a wooden boat is a commitment way above owning a GRP one, so caution at this stage and establish exactly what you are taking on.

Tranona, thank you for your reply and the cautionary tail. It is a Lone Gull 2 design. The overall condition of the boat is cosmetically good. That's why I wanted to look at the places less seen. Here's a close-up of one of the stem post bolts in the anchor locker, above the area shown in my original photo.

 

[PhilEWB]

I feel for you, having just today bought a Griffiths designed boat (although this is GRP) and having owned a wooden built one for 40 odd years in the past. My immediate reaction is to run, or at least walk rapidly away. That looks in really awful nick for such a young boat, but difficult to actually advise without seeing it in the context of the whole boat. The thing with traditional wood construction it is relatively straightforward to repair that sort of damage, but if it was only repaired 5 years ago it does not say much for the person who did it!

You don't say what design it is, although I know of a few Lone Gulls built traditionally in recent years, nor where it is located. Do you have a link to the boat? If you have never owned a wooden boat then you are on the start of a steep learning curve. Despite my long experience I still learned a lot from surveyors in my recent search for a boat. If you are on the south coast then the guy to talk to is John Lilley of Sea Surveys in Dorset. He posts here from time to time on wooden boat matters.

In my search I was keen on having another wooden boat and looked at many not just Griffiths designs, and inevitably the ones in the best condition were not designs that appealed or met my specific needs so I fell back on what I know, the Golden Hind design which is built in either sheathed ply or GRP with sheathed wood deck and coachroof. Got right to actually agreeing to buy what I thought was a very sound all wood one, only for the survey to throw up unexpected rot, which although not particularly expensive to repair just alerted me to the risks of more appearing in the future. Hence deciding to go for a GRP hull.

Roundabout way of saying that taking on a wooden boat is a commitment way above owning a GRP one, so caution at this stage and establish exactly what you are taking on.

I haven't been more precise about the boat, because I don't think that would be fair to the owner.

 

[PhilEWB]

Here's a closer view of one of the stem post bolts in the anchor locker.

Tranona, thank you for your reply and the cautionary tail. It is a Lone Gull 2 design. The overall condition of the boat is cosmetically good. That's why I wanted to look at the places less seen. Here's a close-up of one of the stem post bolts in the anchor locker, above the area shown in my original photo.

I haven't been more precise about the boat, because I don't think that would be fair to the owner.

Happy to message you privately with an Internet link, if there's a way of doing so.

 

[RobinBirch]

Agree with Tranona re John Lilley. A very approachable and knowledgeable guy. If he doesn't see and reply to your post, you should give him a call.

 

[SaltIre]

Happy to message you privately with an Internet link, if there's a way of doing so.

I don't think you can until you have been here longer and made more posts. Not sure how long or how many...

 

[srm]

A quick google search found a 2002 build located on the South Coast. If this is the boat under discussion the pics look very nice.
However, I would be wary of those rusty nuts you show, they may last many years yet but . . . Good quality bronze bolts, while so much more expensive do not rust and are much more reliable.
As to Stainless Steel, it can corrode quite happily where part of the surface is in air or oxygenated water and part is covered. Have had rudder heel fittings that looked perfect on the outside and resembled worm eaten wood on the inner faces and similar problems with oceanographic instruments that used high quality stainless steel.
If you are determined then professional advice from a surveyor who really knows wooden boats is a must. However, there are so called surveyors around , with impressive lists of qualifications, who can not describe even a GRP boat correctly and cover themselves by stating each system must be examined / serviced by a professional.

 

[Hacker]

Showing my ignorance.... Why is that?

Because iron/steel bolts will either rust, get crevice corrosion or create iron sickness in the wood. Brass ones are likely to dezincify. All metal work below the waterline in a wooden boat should be bronze. Difficult to be totally sure from the photos but it looks to me if there is the start of iron sickness around the bolts. The keel will either need to be replaced (in part or in whole) or perhaps the holes drilled out and plugged. Either way it’s a lot of work!

 

[PhilEWB]

Many thanks for the explanation.

 

[johnlilley]

I have been looking at buying a fairly recent (early 2000s) self-built Maurice Griffiths design triple keel boat. Having not owned a wooden boat before, I took note of advice on this, and other forums, about things to look out for - including the condition of the stem and steer posts and the state of the bilges.

It had a repair to the stem post and port side bow about 5 years ago, so I was concerned to see that there was some rot/spongy wood and evidence of a little seepage around 3 stem post bolts. -see the photo.

Before I think about putting in an offer and seeking professional advice and think I'd value your thoughts on how significant an issue this is. Thanks in anticipation.

Looking closely at the photograph I would be concerned about the plank on the right hand side of the post . The plank seam gap looks to be excessive compared to the others and you can see the cotton, but there also looks like some problem at the point where this plank arrives at the post just at the top bolt location. There appears to be some pitting or crevicing of the plank where the paint is in poor condition.
I think you would be wise to get a professional second opinion on this before engaging a surveyor to survey the whole of the vessel first. An experienced eye might be able to save you the cost of a possibly pointless expensive survey in a few minutes. Many (but not all) surveyors will be happy to simply pass an opinion without actually doing a survey if the boat is reasonably close to them or they are working on a boat close by.

 

[PhilEWB]

Looking closely at the photograph I would be concerned about the plank on the right hand side of the post . The plank seam gap looks to be excessive compared to the others and you can see the cotton, but there also looks like some problem at the point where this plank arrives at the post just at the top bolt location. There appears to be some pitting or crevicing of the plank where the paint is in poor condition.
I think you would be wise to get a professional second opinion on this before engaging a surveyor to survey the whole of the vessel first. An experienced eye might be able to save you the cost of a possibly pointless expensive survey in a few minutes. Many (but not all) surveyors will be happy to simply pass an opinion without actually doing a survey if the boat is reasonably close to them or they are working on a boat close by.

Many thanks for the advice. We were thinking along similar lines. If you don't mind, I will contact you for a recommendation for a local surveyor, as you're a few hours drive from where the yacht is moored.

 

[Tranona]

I haven't been more precise about the boat, because I don't think that would be fair to the owner.

OK Pretty sure I know the boat - considered it myself. Suggest you get Tim Gilmore of Dolphin Boatyard in Birdham Pool to have a look at it. As John suggests worth getting specific advice on this issue before going for a full survey. I used a guy called Rupert Smith for the survey on a wooden GH in Dell Quay. Good wood experience with the IBTC in Lowestoft as well as a naval architect. Happy for me to sit by him while he dealt with any causes for concern so I understood his report. Not a verbose report like you get from some surveyors but straight to the point.

 

[DoubleEnder]

Diana Roberts is an experienced S Coast surveyor who knows wooden boats. PM me for her number or do a Google

 

[PhilEWB]

GDallas/ Tranona/ John / all, thank you all for your help. You have given me some really good advice, contacts and a way forward, if we want to take this further. I am also impressed with some of your investigatory skills ?!

 

[ianc1200]

Not MG designed, but MG owned (Storm); lots of that in Storm, but has lasted 110 years. Where planks renewed, original and subsequent mostly wasted galvanised nails, sometimes 12 nails per plank/frame connection. But the point is it's all renewable, you just have to decide whether you want to do it. At East Coast shipwright rates of £20-25 per hour, you can get a lot done for relatively small amounts.