Rocna's bad press by video - anchor thread don't read if you don't like anchor threads!

[geem]

I've had a Delta on my boat for 18 years, and it's never dragged once, not even when sitting-out hurricane Tomas in Antigua. So I see no need to change it for an over-priced fashion statement.

How many times does it take you to set it? In my experience most anchors don't drag when set assuming enough chain is deployed. The biggest benefit of a new anchor is the reliability of setting, I have experienced first hand and watched many capable sailors struggle to set old generation anchors.

 

[Kukri]

You may have bought a genuine CQR - but your ambition is to replace it with an Ultra - so a CQR might be 'adequate' but in your view an Ultra is better. I assume you are not buying the Ultra for its bling value -

No, as I wrote, I bought it as a spare, or a big kedge. I may replace the Delta.

Of course I am buying the Ultra for its bling value.

Now.....we don't have the answers as to why Rocna is equated with a CQR - but there is an undercurrent that suggests people don't entirely believe in the result. There is no suggestion that the results are 'wrong' but maybe that the protocols are sufficiently different to 'real life' as to cast doubts on the veracity of the results as a vehicle to choose an anchor for the real world. Steve may repetitively underline that his tests procedures are extreme - but if they are so extreme as to not match anyones experiences in real life - who, or what, are the target audience.

This is a comment that I do not understand.

If you watch the relevant videos - I am not asking you to watch all of them - Steve explains exactly why he comes to the conclusions that he does.

It could not be clearer.

 

[Bobc]

How many times does it take you to set it? In my experience most anchors don't drag when set assuming enough chain is deployed. The biggest benefit of a new anchor is the reliability of setting, I have experienced first hand and watched many capable sailors struggle to set old generation anchors.

Has always set pretty-much first time every time, other than in JVD where it took a couple of goes because of the granite under the sand.

I don't yank at it on the engine (which is why a lot of people have problems with them). I just let the boat pull up on it using the wind and tide most of the time, and never had any issues with it.

 

[Kukri]

Just by the by, I noticed two large Beneteaux Oceani on a pontoon, both with Deltas. The windage of each of them would be more than that of my boat but their anchors were very much smaller. We can’t all be right?

One comment - when you buy an anchor cost might be an influence (and is used as measure by people testing anchors). However the price of an anchor should be irrelevant - it will last for years, it secures a device that costs, for example, more than a Ferrari (and probably lasts longer ) and its cost per night at anchor is - less than peanuts.

On this, we seem to agree. Unless of course people don’t intend to use an anchor - and there are many people who don’t… in which case, leaving the OE anchor, chain and windlass (many, perhaps most, Deltas are OE on new boats) unchanged on a new boat makes perfect sense.

 

[geem]

Has always set pretty-much first time every time, other than in JVD where it took a couple of goes because of the granite under the sand.

I don't yank at it on the engine (which is why a lot of people have problems with them). I just let the boat pull up on it using the wind and tide most of the time, and never had any issues with it.

That's the difference. They are hard to set. With my Spade you can just drag it in to a full set in its own length with the engine. Job done. Waiting for the anchor to settle isn't a great option when it's a busy anchorage blowing 30kts. That's when you drag and wish you had a better anchor.

 

[Bobc]

That's the difference. They are hard to set. With my Spade you can just drag it in to a full set in its own length with the engine. Job done. Waiting for the anchor to settle isn't a great option when it's a busy anchorage blowing 30kts. That's when you drag and wish you had a better anchor.

The Delta's not hard to set. It's a piece of cake. Where did I say it was hard to set?

All I do is pay chain out to about 2 x depth and let it pull up on that, then pay out the rest and let it pull up on that, and then go and put the kettle on.

i don't think it's ever taken more than a boat length to set.

 

[Bobc]

I personally think that setting an anchor has more to do with the person doing it than it does with the anchor.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am amazed that people can measure setting distances of their anchor to less than a meter. I have seen it videoed, but I don’t believe anyone is measuring that degree of accuracy in real situations.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

"Most common modern anchor is a Rocna"- agree.
Steve also researches in his video #122 minute 5:24 for the lazy/impatient ones seeking to comment ;-) Marina Port Townsend USA, Aug 21. Furthermore: reading the comments you will find this:
GranSol Youtube video comment:

".... I work for a global marine electronics manufacturer so I visit Spanish and Portuguese ports of all kinds on a regular basis. Some time a go I did a similar survey noting brands of radar antenas in order to determine market share or radar manufactuers so I understand what it takes to complete the work you have done. Bravo! For anchors, Lewmar´s Delta rules in Spain by far with my estimate of 35%-45% of all anchors seen in bow rollers. Lewmar markets very powerfully in Europe plus the Delta fits very well in most bow rollers (some manufacturers even build them taylor made for this anchor). It also has a good price so it is supplied extensively as boat OEM equipment. Deltas are followed by Bruce in the second position and then Danforth and Rocna with CQR still with a substantial presence but more and more in older boats. Anchor market is very traditional. Once a manufacturer is able to build a reputation (based in real performance or not) the crowd follows and numbers boom. CQR, Delta and Rocnas are good examples of this. In my opinion, this happens because most sailors set anchor in extremely good conditions and later they state: "I have anchored 200 times and my anchor never failed me. My anchor is the best" and then others follow. Well, testing anchors with strong pulling forces is the real test and this is hardly done by most sailors so marketing and advertising plus domino effect do the rest. Keep it up!"

I guess says it all, also regarding comments on main market and popularity of anchors/reasons to buy. Btw Epsilon is said to be also coming as OEM/charter vessels.

Ref not complaining/reporting failures about Rocnas/happy customers:
People complain and report extremes, positives/worst alike. Normal daily life averages are considered boring. Anchoring is mostly about avoiding extremes.
I've come across a recent quote by Neeves, Jan 20 2020:
"Interestingly if you average Spade/Rocna and Excel and then average CQR/Bruce and Delta and plot the recommended vessel size against anchor weight - you will find 2 identical lines. Basically those older anchors which have about half the hold of the newer anchors are recommended for the same size vessels as are recommended by the newer anchors. Given the newer ones have twice the hold - safety factors have been doubled."

Let me add safety factors being doubled- people tend to oversize 1-2 sizes so why should there be reports of trouble? Btw people mostly buy cheap and convenient, products they remind thus having been highly promoted or marketed. Many of them don't care and buy what is available at their local chandlers/marinas in an (over-) size good enough to make them feel safe. Nothing wrong with that (I know Neeves' opinion reg oversize). Anchors have evolved and will most likely do their "boring" job in conditions up to 50kts, even with a low average of rating 3s, (Steve charts) just mho, beyond anybody would have left way earlier for safety/comfort already. Otherwise in depth researched to buy adequate gear, has been conducted, 2-3 properly sized specialist anchors.

Summing up, I honestly think Neeves' and Steve's "results" have many similarities: Viking having the hold of one upsize Spade (see soft mud vid and "surf sand"). Excel, Spade, Viking mostly at top of the pack. Fortress best in soft mud and loose sand, light weight aluminium anchors doing enough good (middle of the pack if I recall correctly) to not make a perceptible difference in favourable common anchoring grounds and conditions not exceeding 50 kts, otherwise you'd have already left your anchorage, appropriate sizing provided. Mantus M1 setting quickly, doing quite remarkable overall, lacking ultimate hold compensated by manufacturer's recommendation guide, Steve also tends to using main allround anchor one size up, pros and cons having been endlessly discussed on this forum.

I'd love to see both Neeves and Steve teaming up for the most advanced anchor testing EVER, rather than reading doubtful criticism of one another, anchor geeks alike )

Also I would love to read about Neeves' Viking 10 test results, mentioned many times, no results written yet. I'm very curious, however no connection!

Don't worry never will I post kind of a novel like this again.

Happy anchoring, stay safe and take care!

Very elegantly put and the content easy to understand. Thanks.

 

[Kukri]

I personally think that setting an anchor has more to do with the person doing it than it does with the anchor.

Of this, I am very sure.

At some point in my sailing career of more than half a century, anchors and anchoring became difficult. It wasn’t difficult in the 1970s, but by 2000 anchors and anchoring had become a huge black cloud on the mental horizons of people starting sailing.

I suspect that this big black cloud of worry and expense began to form when some Strine or other, whose name I now forget (not Johnathan), invented some sort of new wonder anchor and set out to make his fortune with it.

Rather like the aerodynamicist’s bumble bee with the impossible wing loading, people who didn’t read the internet carried on anchoring and others worried about it so much that they plodded from marina to marina.

 

[geem]

The Delta's not hard to set. It's a piece of cake. Where did I say it was hard to set?

All I do is pay chain out to about 2 x depth and let it pull up on that, then pay out the rest and let it pull up on that, and then go and put the kettle on.

i don't think it's ever taken more than a boat length to set.

But a decent anchor sets in the length of the anchor not the boat! You risk fouling the anchor with whatever crap is on the seabed dragging it a boat length.
The anchorage where we are is all seagrass. There have been numerous boats dragging. The worst has been Delta anchors and one guy who dragged his CQR several times.

 

[srm]

Interesting notes in a number of posts about not many people anchoring in 'extreme' conditions.

I do have experience of being anchored in winds well above 60 knots - the limit on the boat's anemometer. Quite simply, whenever I suspect winds will be in the 40 knot plus range I lay the second anchor and as much chain (main anchor) and chain / nylon (second anchor as the anchorage allows and preferably my full scope. Having sailed a fair bit on the west coast of Norway I do like the security of a long nylon line to a strong point ashore, and have used this a few times in Scottish anchorages late in the season.

As I said in my first post in this thread, "laying an anchor is an act of faith", and I like to sleep soundly.

 

[Bouba]

True, with my above mentioned anchor choice it took 5 nights at anchor to compensate for the expensive costs of Croatian marinas

Thanks a lot for mentioning your experience with Viking 10 and the Z Shank, I love the design and thinking behind it! Also good to know the Galva thickness, mine had minor issues in that respect, but your measurements are very reassuring and their staff is very responsive and helpful. I only tested mine away from real life scenarios in a hard garden substrate with a winch and 4,5:1 scope. Biting/setting ability is impressive, however this thread is about unfair video press about Rocna, so I won't go into too much off topic.



Attached is his latest updated chart, (new here obviously no pic upload available rather than links, so I'll post the video ) Rocna double the hold of CQR in sand, nothing wrong with that imo. Skip to minute 19:34

all the best!

That’s an interesting video! At the end he had on his bench all the anchors from worst to best laid out. Quite impressive. What surprised me was that the Rocna was about midpoint (no way matching his spreadsheet).
But what shocked me was how close to the bottom the Spade was? I thought that was the gold standard

 

[Kukri]

That’s an interesting video! At the end he had on his bench all the anchors from worst to best laid out. Quite impressive. What surprised me was that the Rocna was about midpoint (no way matching his spreadsheet).
But what shocked me was how close to the bottom the Spade was? I thought that was the gold standard

The spreadsheet is a spreadsheet assembling a number of parameters and aggregating them.

 

[Bouba]

The spreadsheet is a spreadsheet assembling a number of parameters and aggregating them.

That’s very…..um…..very….er……

 

[Bobc]

That’s an interesting video! At the end he had on his bench all the anchors from worst to best laid out. Quite impressive. What surprised me was that the Rocna was about midpoint (no way matching his spreadsheet).
But what shocked me was how close to the bottom the Spade was? I thought that was the gold standard

Having just watched the video, it strikes me that the Fortress/Danforth wiped the floor with all the rest.

 

[Kukri]

Having just watched the video, it strikes me that the Fortress/Danforth wiped the floor with all the rest.

Yes, but those are “it’s ideal conditions”.

That is why it is recommended as a kedge - if you are aground, it’s what you want!

 

[Yooha83]

That’s an interesting video! At the end he had on his bench all the anchors from worst to best laid out. Quite impressive. What surprised me was that the Rocna was about midpoint (no way matching his spreadsheet).
But what shocked me was how close to the bottom the Spade was? I thought that was the gold standard

Indeed, interesting video - I disagree your interpretation regarding the spreadsheet:

Rocna/Spade (40/36 units anchor weight): get a grade 3, which is right between 1 (poor) and 5 (best), thus middle of the pack, nowhere near bottom.
CQR (24) gets a 2, Claw (4) gets a 1.
I'm finally looking forward to people criticizing Steve's workbench as not being wide enough to accomodate all tested anchors with appropriate gaps in between according to their performance - just kidding!

I was also already waiting to see reactions on the Spade not coming out at the very top on this seabed, obviously Neeves knows why he is testing and using a V10 as a primary currently.
I'd probably given it a second or third pull to verify, but hey, it's Steve's private hobby in his spare time, I'd rather not raise the expectations bar to a professional magazine test level, who charge money for publishing content, developed by a team of fully paid journalists, editors and technical supervisors. We should be thankful and show some support, if you like things improved, tell him.

Also I'd like to point out the pillar diagram minute 19:34 again, look at the results of the Vulcan it is a ROCNA product! Please help me, I cannot see any bias.

The attentive viewer might have also recognized the hint to further scale testings of the original Bruce anchors at the end of the video, apprx six of which are waiting in his workshop. So I conclude Steve clearly knows the difference between a Claw and a Bruce, just facing the doubts of earlier comments of non-watchers.

Happy watching and debating

 

[vyv_cox]

I am amazed that people can measure setting distances of their anchor to less than a meter. I have seen it videoed, but I don’t believe anyone is measuring that degree of accuracy in real situations.

I have dozens of photos of my Rocna in which the length of the set is very obviously the same or less than the total length of the anchor. This is considerably less than one metre.

 

[Dipper]

Also I'd like to point out the pillar diagram minute 19:34 again, look at the results of the Vulcan it is a ROCNA product! Please help me, I cannot see any bias.

I have a Vulcan 9 which I bought to replace a non-descript 25lb plough so I found the video very interesting and reassuring. I've only used it a few times for lunch stops so I can't really comment on its holding power other than it does bury itself in sand. The Vulcan actually takes up less space in my anchor locker which is a bonus.