• REMINDER - COVID-19

    Any content, information, or advice found on social media platforms and the wider Internet, including forums such as YBW, should NOT be acted upon unless checked against a reliable, authoritative source, and re-checked, particularly where personal health and liberty is at stake. Seek professional advice/confirmation before acting on such at all times.

    Users who are found to promulgate FAKE NEWS on the forum in regard to this issue, intentional or otherwise, may find their access terminated. It is your responsibility to provide references to bona fide sources.

    FAKE NEWS, in this regard, is that which is posited by organisations, media, etc., that is repeated on the forum, or used to support personal opinion/hypothesis posted by users - FAKE NEWS is not necessarily the personal opinion/hypothesis being posted in itself, any issues with such should be challenged respectfully.

    IN ADDITION it seems that conspiracy theories are finding their way onto the forum. This is not the place for such content. Users who post it may find their access limited or permanently suspended. Please leave it where you find it.

Rigging

Saddletramp

New member
Joined
11 Jul 2007
Messages
1,036
Location
London
Useful discussion on rigging failure on the Liveaboard Forum on the 13th (sorry can do the link thing)

Several people taliking about rigging last night.

Thanks Roger, excellent evening. Good to meet everyone again. Lets keep the dialogue going, on here and on the yahoo groups.

Regards
Robert
 

Conachair

Guest
Joined
24 Jan 2004
Messages
5,164
Location
London
That was me asking about rigging. Almost a cross post but I'd be interested in you offshore boys take on it. I'm replacing using dyform and norseman but my knowledge is based on books and instinct! I really like having a cutter rig where if the wind pipes up you can get the sail area down low and close to the centre of the boat, but never been out in a real blow so put it to the test. Any views, suggestions, horror stories? I sail 33' Ebbtide steel cutter single handed.
Cheers
Padz - Conachair
www.conachair.co.uk
 

Gargleblaster

Well-known member
Joined
16 Dec 2003
Messages
1,144
Location
Medway, Gillingham Reach
I use standard 1x19 stainless wire and proper swages. I can't seem to get through an offshore cruise without breaking some rigging or other.
The Pardeys who are seen as the gurus of fitting out and sailing a boat for heavy weather recommend talurit fittings as they believe they allow movement without wear hardening. However last year the first bit of rigging to break was my babystay which is the only piece of wire I have with talurit fittings. The break was a clean shear right at the lower talurit fitting.
My normal swages cause the wires to break separately through wear hardening and I can generally pick that up before I have a complete break and replace the stay [if the weather is calm enough]. I have thought about dyform and beefing up my rigging to the next size [in my case 7mm]. This year I am going to experiment with having an extra inner shroud on either side and see if that prevents the breaking of the individual wires.
Unfortunately I don't think I have answered your question as all I know are the problems not the solutions.
 

Saddletramp

New member
Joined
11 Jul 2007
Messages
1,036
Location
London
I want to set up a removeable inner forestay. Highfield levers alone are about £150. Has any one used an alternative. Or indeed comments on the pros and cons of an inner stay.

Great Video Conachair, looks very relaxing. I could do that. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

andlauer

New member
Joined
15 Mar 2007
Messages
310
Location
Paris France
Bonjour
Out of the easy too old rigging issue, there are three other good reasons to have rigging problems : overload, bad balance and loose rigging.

The worst condition for the rigging is not big long waves but short and abrutp one's.

Don't oversize, without designer's advise, the rigging because it's easier to live without a mast than without a hull!

Incidentally the speed has a very important effect (1/2*m*V*V). Don't forget to slow the boat in bad conditions.

Overload : the boat structure including rigging are design for a certain maximum weight. The dynamic effort (when the boat is stopping on a wave for example) is proportional to the mass (F= m*gama where gama is the acceleration) . But the cinetical energy to absorb is also proportional to the weight (1/2*m*v*v) so the acceleration to stop the boat movement is also in relation to the mass.

That is an important issue for the JC. It should drive a minimum size of the boat with a given confort and safety status (confort is much more heavy than safety!). (Think like for an airplane. The total weight must be less than ...)

Bad balance : dynamical rotation efforts and energy are linked to the square of the distance of the mass to the rotation point and to the masse (m*l*l). When you have important masses (anchor chain, water...) at the ends (stern and bow) of the boat the dynamic effort are great. The boat is swinging (planter des pieux!) and at each wave the bow is banging into the wave, splashing about. On a racing boat (as on Sterenn by the way) there is almost nothing (boyancy on Sterenn) in front of the mast or behing the front of the cockpit. It allows the boat to have little longitudinal inertia to be able to stick dynamically to the waves.

Loose rigging: rigging must be very tight. When the rigging is loose the downwind shrouds are not standing the mast anymore and it might bend windwards or backwards (baby stay loose case) and break. When the shrouds are loose the efforts are not releesed by tensions but by shocks (don't forget your are on a dynamic process). As the wires are not very much extendible the shocks are inducing very high instant loads (almost no flexibility to absorb efforts).

On Sterenn rigging sounds like piano. The way to know if your rigging is sufficiently tight is to look at the shrouds downwind while sailing windwards in high wing. They should not be loose. When you are sailing windwards the forestay should remain strait and the back stay should be very stiff (about One ton of strenght on Sterenn).

(Of course that paragraph dont apply to junkrigs. They level the energy by absorbing and restituting the effort by the mast flexibility, like a bow).

Sorry for being so technical.
Eric /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

Gargleblaster

Well-known member
Joined
16 Dec 2003
Messages
1,144
Location
Medway, Gillingham Reach
[ QUOTE ]
Highfield levers alone are about £150. Has any one used an alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]
I use blocks with dyneema line for tension on my babystay. Originally when I bought the boat the line led back to a cleat in the cockpit. But in the interests of efficiency I fitted a mainsheet block with integral cleat to the bottom of my block system. Total cost for two blocks including one with cleat about £40. The inner forestay or baby stay on my boat with a mast head rig is there to stop mast pumping. In high winds it also tends to flatten the sail slightly as I tension it through providing a little mast bend.
I also have an emergency forestay fitted, if that is what you mean, so that I can use a storm jib. It is tensioned by the use of a standard bottle screw. The emergency forestay is fitted to a bracket just below the normal forestay at the stop of the mast and when I need it I take it forward to fit with said bottle screw to the stem head fitting, two notches behind the normal forestay. All that said, I will be removing the emergency forestay this year as I find it is more trouble than it is worth as it gets in the way when moving around the deck. I will carry it in a locker and fit it by climbing the mast on an as required basis - which really means only if I lose my normal forestay. Some years ago my forestay did detach itself from the top of the mast and I was able to hold the mast up with foresail halyards and climb the mast to refit the forestay in an F9 - not pleasant but possible [I have a height phobia].
 

Saddletramp

New member
Joined
11 Jul 2007
Messages
1,036
Location
London
[ QUOTE ]

I use blocks with dyneema line for tension on my babystay. (quote

That's more like it. The intention was to be able to rig up a small jib or storm jib as an other option if all goes wrong with the furler. (Whether I get around to it is another matter)

I will be inspecting rigging this weekend in the light of recent comments. It is 6 years old with light use. There have been several reports on here of new rigging failing so maybe better the devil you know.

First job is to try and keep the water out though. Rain is getting in through cockpit floorboards at the moment. Oh yes and finnish the rewiring and of course the .... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

andlauer

New member
Joined
15 Mar 2007
Messages
310
Location
Paris France
Bonjour
A baby stay that support the storm jib must be undestructible. The higher part must be fitted or just underneath the main stay (less than one foot) or at place hold backwards by shrouds or runners.
On the deck it should be hold to the hull and not to the deck with the underdeck structure to transmit the effort to main hull structure.

An alternative to the baby stay, with the same constraint on the holding points, is to have a furled removable stormjib.
Eric
 

damo

New member
Joined
22 Feb 2005
Messages
3,430
Location
k keeper,Portishead
Mine has a bottle screw with folding tommy bars welded to it - the top one holds the stay fitting still, while the other allows me to wind up the screw. The idea was to use available/cheaper alternatives to a highfield lever, and the bottle screw can be easily done up without tools. It may not be bombproof though, so I intend to make a highfield lever sometime.

I'll post a pic in the next day or so.

The inner forestay upper end is shackled to s/s hounds which I had made (£50), and the lower fitting is an eye bolt which replaces one of the windlass bolts. The lower end of the eye bolt, below deck, has a length of rigging wire shackled to a glassed-in web in line with the stay, again with a bottle screw, so there is a "continuous" route from hull to mast.
 

Saddletramp

New member
Joined
11 Jul 2007
Messages
1,036
Location
London
[ QUOTE ]


An alternative to the baby stay, with the same constraint on the holding points, is to have a furled removable stormjib.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean Eric.

I take the point you and Damo have made about connecting to the hull.

With runners as well it gets a bit complicated.

My furler has been a pain of late. Maybe wiser to keep it simple and have hank on sails.
 

andlauer

New member
Joined
15 Mar 2007
Messages
310
Location
Paris France
Bonjour
I agree on hanks. They are cheep, simple, easy, reliable and easy to fix en case of problem. Much better than furling jibs, when you really need something that works, above 35kts of wind.

What I ment was that it is possible to replace the baby stay by a very stiff heliad (bad spelling, bable fish is stupid, "drisse" in French) linked to a specific furling devise, including a tectile stay, that has only two positions furled or unfurled. The sail is kept rolled as a big soft sausage, it is hoisted furled, then tensionned and unfurled when necessary.
You may keep the main sail block system to put the stay in tension or use a winch and a blocker (efforts are important).

Carver furler

Remark : Carver is expensive but good quality and nice design and nice web site.
Eric /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Saddletramp

New member
Joined
11 Jul 2007
Messages
1,036
Location
London
I like the idea of a continuous line. Less to go wrong. Though at the moment my top swivel is not working and I can not unfurl the sail. I have to go up the mast to sort it out. Presumably the same thing can happen to a Carver type system. I expect it would also need support for the mast in the form of runners.

I think the favorite option in terms of cost and simplicity must be a baby stay with a fitting such as Damo's and a hank on sail.
Thanks for the photo Damo. Very clear.
 

damo

New member
Joined
22 Feb 2005
Messages
3,430
Location
k keeper,Portishead
"Thanks for the photo Damo. Very clear. "

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Apologies for the state of the decks - the previous owner was an enthusiastic sander of teak, and a wet winter in the boatyard has caused a lot of greenery to grow /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Saddletramp

New member
Joined
11 Jul 2007
Messages
1,036
Location
London
[ QUOTE ]

Apologies for the state of the decks - the previous owner was an enthusiastic sander of teak, and a wet winter in the boatyard has caused a lot of greenery to grow /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought I had better not mention it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

tarik

Member
Joined
27 Mar 2004
Messages
725
Location
Broadstairs Kent
An excellent picture. Could I ask a couple of points, what sort of secure holding did you bond to the hull? And where did you secure your mast fixing point - how far below the masthead or was it below the spreaders??


I intend to copy your example,

regards


David
 

damo

New member
Joined
22 Feb 2005
Messages
3,430
Location
k keeper,Portishead
The upper hounds is a s/s fitting, and it is about 0.75m below the masthead IIRC (I'll try and get a pic). This was a compromise between getting it as close to the top as possible, and trying to keep the removable stay parallel with the forestay (a slutter rig?).

When I had it made I got the guy to weld on a couple of lugs, so in the future I can move it a bit lower and fit a hooped spreader with diamond stays. (Trying to future-proof it, so I can have an inner roller -urler sail for the Trades /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Below the windlass, in line with the stay, I glassed an 18mm ply web into the bow vee, and shackled a wire strop between that and the windlass bolt. Ideally it would have been a s/s bar or rod to a fitting bolted through the bow, but that is a job for the future because it is below the w/l on Snow Petrel.
 

damo

New member
Joined
22 Feb 2005
Messages
3,430
Location
k keeper,Portishead
The hounds are 50cm below the masthead and were riveted on just above a halyard fairlead (the staysail/storm sail was originally meant to be set flying)

Pic isn't very clear, sorry, but it was a wet and miserable day!

You are welcome to pm me for any other details

 
Top