RGR clarification please

[Quiddle]

As I understand it a boat 'exported' from the UK can claim RGR on return before 31 Dec '21. I bought a boat, EU VAT paid and UK flagged from purchase if that makes any difference, in France in Feb '20. I sailed it to the UK for a couple of months and have UK berthing receipts as proof. The boat then returned to the EU where it is now.
My question is whether leaving the UK in 2020 counts as exporting the boat which was bought outside of the UK in that year. Any ideas?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Has I understand it the boat has to be own by the same owner who !!!!exported!!! it .

You brought the boat as you say in the EU so reality is you didn't export it .

On the other side of the coin you have prove you own the boat and the boat was in the Uk and while in your ownership you then exported it so maybe you have a good case.

Personally we won't be bring our boat back but if I did I probably Transfir it into my partner name and move it out every 18 month rather then give HMRC a lump of my hard earn cash for some thing that I has already been paid for .

 

[Graham376]

My understanding is that you will be OK claiming RGR. You bought the boat in France and took it to the UK whilst in the common VAT & Customs area so no chargeable event there. You then went sailing in 2020 and want to return to the UK under the same ownership as when it left which would normally (old rules) give you until 2023 for RGR.

Under the new rules, I "think" the boat will be treated as exported when you left because it wasn't in the UK on 31/12 so, you may have to return before end of this year to claim RGR. No doubt Tranona will be along to correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Tranona]

Here I am! my understanding is that your assumptions are right. The last "export" was by the same owner that is bringing it back, therefore you have 3 years during which you can claim RGR. The 31/12 2021 is the concession for any boats that are eligible for RGR, but without the 3 year limit.

Only clarification needed is over the EU VAT paid bit (flag is irrelevant) which must be evidenced by actual VAT payment in one of the 27 members. I mention this because when the boat was bought it was EU VAT paid even if the VAT was paid in the UK,

Suspect, though that the short period spent in the UK will raise eyebrows, particularly if you are resident in the EU, but I guess it depends on why you want to bring it back to the UK. If you are UK resident you would have to go through the process as you cannot use TA. If you are EU resident you can use TA but only for 18 months and if you then sell in UK you have to import. If you are EU resident but are taking up UK residency again you will likely be able to claim Returning residents relief, with the rather minor restrictions on when you can sell the boat.

 

[Moonbeam]

The 31/12 2021 is the concession for any boats that are eligible for RGR, but without the 3 year limit.

News update yesterday on RYA website... seems they have managed to get HMRC to extend the grace period on RGR for another six months until 30th June 2022 RYA and British Marine welcome extension to Returned Goods Relief grace period

 

[Quiddle]

Further to my 1st post, I'm on the cusp of sailing from EU to UK and have received this advice from RYA legal unit.
"As the boat was lying in the EU at the end of the Brexit transition period and it has VAT paid status, it should now have Union goods status (EU VAT paid). The boat will remain in free circulation of the EU as long as it remains in the EU27 member states." (My bold)
To me, this suggests that if I move the boat to the UK I will lose EU VAT paid status. Was I overly optimistic in thinking I could retain EU VAT paid status after returning to UK, even on a temporary basis?

 

[Gibeltarik]

You were overly optimistic.

However - if you are an EU citizen then you would be able to bring the boat to UK under Temporary Admission for 18 months.

 

[Graham376]

Further to my 1st post, I'm on the cusp of sailing from EU to UK and have received this advice from RYA legal unit.
"As the boat was lying in the EU at the end of the Brexit transition period and it has VAT paid status, it should now have Union goods status (EU VAT paid). The boat will remain in free circulation of the EU as long as it remains in the EU27 member states." (My bold)
To me, this suggests that if I move the boat to the UK I will lose EU VAT paid status. Was I overly optimistic in thinking I could retain EU VAT paid status after returning to UK, even on a temporary basis?

I don't think you were over optimistic, the EU also has RGR. I can't see anything which says an EU based boat isn't allowed to leave for a holiday cruise, which is all you need to establish presence and VAT status in the UK before June 2022.

 

[Gibeltarik]

Sorry - you have ignored the basic premise - you can only TA from your place of residence / citizenship.

Owner - not boat.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Further to my 1st post, I'm on the cusp of sailing from EU to UK and have received this advice from RYA legal unit.
"As the boat was lying in the EU at the end of the Brexit transition period and it has VAT paid status, it should now have Union goods status (EU VAT paid). The boat will remain in free circulation of the EU as long as it remains in the EU27 member states." (My bold)
To me, this suggests that if I move the boat to the UK I will lose EU VAT paid status. Was I overly optimistic in thinking I could retain EU VAT paid status after returning to UK, even on a temporary basis?

Not going to get into this too much but if your residence is in the UK you wouldn't be able to return to the UK on a TA .
As soon as you you have to paid vat .
On the other hand if your not residence in the UK then you could use the boat under TA rules .
taken it one step further ,
Although say the boat is registered on SSR then you have another problem . As you can't have SSR and not be a resident in the UK .

 

[Graham376]

As I understand it a boat 'exported' from the UK can claim RGR on return before 31 Dec '21. I bought a boat, EU VAT paid and UK flagged from purchase if that makes any difference, in France in Feb '20. I sailed it to the UK for a couple of months and have UK berthing receipts as proof. The boat then returned to the EU where it is now.
My question is whether leaving the UK in 2020 counts as exporting the boat which was bought outside of the UK in that year. Any ideas?

My interpretation of the rules is that as the boat was in the UK in your ownership in 2020 and you are the person who took it out, you have 3 years from that date to return to keep UK paid status.

A VAT paid boat in EU on 31/12 maintains its EU VAT status and can leave the EU any time and return to EU using RGR terms.

 

[sailaboutvic]

As I understand it a boat 'exported' from the UK can claim RGR on return before 31 Dec '21. I bought a boat, EU VAT paid and UK flagged from purchase if that makes any difference, in France in Feb '20. I sailed it to the UK for a couple of months and have UK berthing receipts as proof. The boat then returned to the EU where it is now.
My question is whether leaving the UK in 2020 counts as exporting the boat which was bought outside of the UK in that year. Any ideas?

Should,d had read your first posting.

The way i understand the rules , as you exported the boat you can bring it back into the UK under the RGR rules , you can't use it under the TA rules.
TA apply to boats which belong to non British residents and under another flag.

I think what your asking is if you can keep EU vat status as well as UK vat status .
Some say you can't others say you can , I say who would know .

 

[Quiddle]

Should,d had read your first posting.

The way i understand the rules , as you exported the boat you can bring it back into the UK under the RGR rules , you can't use it under the TA rules.
TA apply to boats which belong to non British residents and under another flag.

I think what your asking is if you can keep EU vat status as well as UK vat status .
Some say you can't others say you can , I say who would know .

Yes, that's what I'm looking for, dual VAT status. According to CA webinar this is possible but I think I'll hold fire until there's a bit more certainty.

 

[Tranona]

The key issue for you is whether you bought the boat in the UK, took it to France and now wish to return it to the UK. If that is the case (as Graham says) then you can use RGR into the UK. You can then take it back into the EU, notionally within 3 years and it retains its EU paid status. You can also still come back to the UK with it (within 3 years) claiming RGR ad infinitum.

The UK end is pretty secure and well tested, but it is still not clear how each EU state will handle RGR in these circumstances - although the rules from the EU are clear. You can see from Chris Robbs threads about Greece, that some states tend to go their own way when rules change! So I think you are wise to wait until the EU/French procedures are tested and clarified - if keeping EU VAT status is important to you.

What breaks this cycle is a change in ownership.

 

[Graham376]

Here's a link to the EU rules on RGR, seem to be the same as UK - General rules for duty relief on returned goods (revenue.ie)

 

[sailaboutvic]

What breaks this cycle is a change in ownership.

If I may ask how?
Say I brought Quiddle boat privately in the UK and he give me his documents and prove to say the boat was in the EU 2020 ,
I then sailed it over to Spain within three years I can return and claim RGR .

Now say I sold it a year in a later in Spain ,passing over the Document Quiddle given me who going to know the boat lost its EU vat status?
The boat could had been sold to me in the EU where it would had kept its EU vat status .

Unless there some paper trail ie sold through a brokers or when registering
the boat as a new owner is asked the question in what country did you buy the boat , which does not happen at the moment at less .

To add to that are boats going to keep claiming RGR every time they leave the UK and return .
If thats the case HMRC are in for a real problem the amount of boats that cross the channel throughout the summer months each year,
Or is just informing custom by calling the yachtline enough .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Following my last posting .
This could get even more complicated, say two year time I see a boat for sale the south coast ,
The seller as a paid invoice to say vat paid.
Do I then start asking for prove where was the boat in Dec 2020?
Let just say I did and he said on his own private mooring or on his land , , do that boat become unsellable as a boat that UK vat can't be proved?

Let's say I didnt ask some time later im asked when returning back from a weekend in France .

 

[Graham376]

Following my last posting .
This could get even more complicated, say two year time I see a boat for sale the south coast ,
The seller as a paid invoice to say vat paid.
Do I then start asking for prove where was the boat in Dec 2020?
Let just say I did and he said on his own private mooring or on his land , , do that boat become unsellable as a boat that UK vat can't be proved?

Let's say I didnt ask some time later im asked when returning back from a weekend in France .

Proof of VAT payment certainly more important from now on, particularly on boats of a type likely to be taken out of UK. From a UK based owner's point of view, if he/she visits EU, not a problem there as a visitor for 18 months. Problem could come when re-entering UK waters where (as a resident) proof of VAT paid status could be requested, particularly if returning from long term cruise and claiming RGR.

I would no longer consider buying a boat which doesn't have proof of VAT paid status for the territory I wish to sail. As you suggest, change of ownership documents rarely note a boat's location at point of sale but proof could be requested in future. For that reason, I have a letter and photos taken by Policia Maritima, confirming my boat was on it's mooring on 31/12.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Proof of VAT payment certainly more important from now on, particularly on boats of a type likely to be taken out of UK. From a UK based owner's point of view, if he/she visits EU, not a problem there as a visitor for 18 months. Problem could come when re-entering UK waters where (as a resident) proof of VAT paid status could be requested, particularly if returning from long term cruise and claiming RGR.

I would no longer consider buying a boat which doesn't have proof of VAT paid status for the territory I wish to sail. As you suggest, change of ownership documents rarely note a boat's location at point of sale but proof could be requested in future. For that reason, I have a letter and photos taken by Policia Maritima, confirming my boat was on it's mooring on 31/12.

For the likes of you and me who know the rules that's find,
like you we also have and letter stamp stating the boat was berth in the marina on the day Dec 2020 and not just a contract.
But what about the hundreds of British boat owner in the UK who keep their boat on private land and mooring,
Thinking they ok as their boat was in the UK .
how are they going to prove they boat is UK vat paid if anyone ask . Be it a buyer or border control on they way back after a weekend in France .
Taken in consideration if you read HMRC notes advising everyone to carry prove .

 

[Graham376]

As far as location is concerned, many will be able to obtain letters from marinas, yards and mooring owner and best to do it now before records disappear and memories fade. Invoices for parts supplied over the years with UK delivery address will also help build a picture.

As far as proving VAT was originally paid, that's a different ball game and I don't know what I would do, so many builders have gone out of business so not possible to obtain copy invoices, even if Data Protection Act would allow. Very few will have T2Ls and many won't have any proof whatsoever. There was an HMRC yacht unit (at Dover?) who would issue a certificate stating VAT deemed paid for those without invoices but I think they were disbanded.

No doubt there will be some DTP constructive use