Refresh my memory please.

[Robin]

Showing my antiquity again but way back when I did a bit of minor offshore racing , the only electronics allowed was a depth sounder and maybe a handheld RDF, no GPS no plotter or advanced weather routing stuff. In following what I can on the 2021 Fastnet it highlights the inevitable march of progress albeit at the 'expense' of the ordinary folk with small pockets. I noticed a retirement or two in the Fastnet for 'failed electronics' as well as one crew mentioning fortunately they had dinghy sailor/small keelboat sailor crews on board that could sail by the seat of their pants when their electronics went out.

So when was the transition from pretty much nowt to anything goes? Was it different for RORC v JOG v Club level stuff?

 

[flaming]

Showing my antiquity again but way back when I did a bit of minor offshore racing , the only electronics allowed was a depth sounder and maybe a handheld RDF, no GPS no plotter or advanced weather routing stuff. In following what I can on the 2021 Fastnet it highlights the inevitable march of progress albeit at the 'expense' of the ordinary folk with small pockets. I noticed a retirement or two in the Fastnet for 'failed electronics' as well as one crew mentioning fortunately they had dinghy sailor/small keelboat sailor crews on board that could sail by the seat of their pants when their electronics went out.

So when was the transition from pretty much nowt to anything goes? Was it different for RORC v JOG v Club level stuff?

Not sure when the change was made, or even if it was ever specifically outlawed.

The electronics failing as a reason for retirement is an interesting one. My sense is that it would depend on why you were doing the race. If you're in it to win it, then if your electronics fail on the way along the South coast, you're definitely not going to be in the chocolates so may well decide to call it a day. But if you're doing it for the experience, then you'd probably press on.

 

[Martin_J]

I did notice that three out of the eighty retired as of yesterday afternoon stated electronics as reason. This could have included vhf or lights though..

Back to the original question, I'm sure we used an AP Decca navigator Mk II back in the early eighties when racing. It gave lat and long and was the latest technology then. I don't know what the Mk I was

 

[Robin]

I did notice that three out of the eighty retired as of yesterday afternoon stated electronics as reason. This could have included vhf or lights though..

Back to the original question, I'm sure we used an AP Decca navigator Mk II back in the early eighties when racing. It gave lat and long and was the latest technology then. I don't know what the Mk I was

AIRC Phillips DYN 11 was the first available off contract from Decca to yotties, and giving lat/long data not needing special charts I had one, cost around £700 , a lot back then, more than my first yacht.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

AIRC Phillips DYN 11 was the first available off contract from Decca to yotties, and giving lat/long data not needing special charts I had one, cost around £700 , a lot back then, more than my first yacht.

The thing I loved most about them was that Function 99 was the off command.

Prior to using one of those though, I once chartered the High Tension 36 'Poppy 2' (Cut down to 35 for the Transat if anyone remembers its pram bow), and that had a Walker Sat Nav that was the size of an average briefcase and used Amps like they were going out of fashion. This was a year or two before the DYNII came out I think - we used it in a Deauville race in about '84/5 so would have been legal then.

 

[SaltIre]

I spent some time as 2nd OOW on HMS Broadsword in 1985. When out of sight of land navigation was DR, Decca with suitable "Decca charts" and a new piece of kit that gave us a Latitude & Longitude.
I didn't have much faith in the Decca - if it disagreed with your DR track you could recalibrate it until it agreed with you!

 

[Bajansailor]

I bought a Navstar 2000S satnav at the 1988 Southampton Boat Show for my parent's yacht - it was considered to be quite revolutionary then. It cost GBP 575 (of which GBP 75 was VAT) which was considered to be very good value when compared to previous satnavs (like those by Magnavox) which cost thousands. It was accurate to (I think) a few miles (wow!), and it could get a new fix every couple of hours or so if it was in a good mood and if the satellites were available (even more amazing).
My Mum was visiting England then, and we got a VAT claim form to fill out, so she was able to claim back the VAT by getting the form stamped at Customs in the Gatwick departures.

Navstar also produced a 2000D Decca which cost a bit less, and was a lot more accurate and quicker to update - I remember using one while sailing in Cowes Week a few years later and being amazed by how I could just punch in the co-ordinates for the next mark and give the helm a bearing to it.

I think that Navstar must have been later taken over by Brookes & Gatehouse - Google found one for sale now with an asking price of 20 quid, and the owner says "I THINK IT WILL WORK AS WAS JUST UPGRADED A LONG TIME AGO "
NAVSTAR 2000 D Navigator B& G MARINE NAVIGATOR BOAT PROJECT • £18.50

 

[Robin]

The thing I loved most about them was that Function 99 was the off command.

Prior to using one of those though, I once chartered the High Tension 36 'Poppy 2' (Cut down to 35 for the Transat if anyone remembers its pram bow), and that had a Walker Sat Nav that was the size of an average briefcase and used Amps like they were going out of fashion. This was a year or two before the DYNII came out I think - we used it in a Deauville race in about '84/5 so would have been legal then.

Decca was pretty accurate but could produce some weird results like once showing us doing 100kts backwards as a thunderstorm passed nearby. Overall however I liked it's repeatability so for example if the position given for a mark was out by half a mile today, it would likely be tomorrow also. So much so that I created my own book of waypoints carefully taken off in-date charts and placed to be safely approached from all sides to form preset routes. Initially WPTS were entered in pencil and only overwritten in inkn and dated when actually visited in good clear conditions and checked, that way routes became trustable by nature of the repeatability. An example being transiting Chenal du Four in thick fog following the route built up and tested in good conditions over multiple transits. Following the ground track with zilch vis in strong and often cross tides did the trick nicely though I confess by then we also had acquired a rudimentary (stare down a tube type CRT) radar.
As a partial answer to my original question, I recall lstening to a Fastnet competitor call in the position of a floating dead whale sighted somewhere off Portland to HMCG though I cannot recall the year.

Perhaps it was only JOG that restricted electronics use because back in my active days races were often won by skilled navigators as much as high tech sails and tweaked ratings.. Nowadays it seems money talks and knowing all competitors positions allows match racing tactics even when well out of visual sight.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Decca was pretty accurate but could produce some weird results like once showing us doing 100kts backwards as a thunderstorm passed nearby. Overall however I liked it's repeatability so for example if the position given for a mark was out by half a mile today, it would likely be tomorrow also. So much so that I created my own book of waypoints carefully taken off in-date charts and placed to be safely approached from all sides to form preset routes. Initially WPTS were entered in pencil and only overwritten in inkn and dated when actually visited in good clear conditions and checked, that way routes became trustable by nature of the repeatability. An example being transiting Chenal du Four in thick fog following the route built up and tested in good conditions over multiple transits. Following the ground track with zilch vis in strong and often cross tides did the trick nicely though I confess by then we also had acquired a rudimentary (stare down a tube type CRT) radar.
As a partial answer to my original question, I recall lstening to a Fastnet competitor call in the position of a floating dead whale sighted somewhere off Portland to HMCG though I cannot recall the year.

Perhaps it was only JOG that restricted electronics use because back in my active days races were often won by skilled navigators as much as high tech sails and tweaked ratings.. Nowadays it seems money talks and knowing all competitors positions allows match racing tactics even when well out of visual sight.

You've reminded me about the traffic lights on the Deccas, and of aiming to clip the corner of Les Minquiers, running flat out in F6 fog but assured of our position - until the light went red.

I remember the magazines debating the use of Decca/Loran in racing through the late 70's/early 80's and am convinced that it was a fact that it was banned in RORC too, but by the time I actually started doing it everything had eased. Could well be a false memory though.

 

[savageseadog]

Decca was a lot better than nothing but it did have to be backed up with chartwork to detect anomalies and position loss. Approaching the Isle of Man in the fog and dark our Decca decided to lose position when we were less than 5 miles off, probably due to the cliffs. The Maughold Head light was invisible even when were were less than a mile off.

 

[Robin]

We consistently found we were were half a mile closer inshore off northwest Brittany than Desmond the Decca said but at least it was consistent. In Biscay once the French 'chain' closed we learned to use the Spanish one albeit at long range, it worked but computed info like VMG/SOG etc was 'interesting. When we finally bought a GPS we had hat installed on a changeover switch with Decca to a Yeoman plotter permanently mounted on the chart table so could quickly compare results and had ready made backup in place. Had dGPS too when it was available. SWMBO was doing her YM shorebased at the time and became an extra backup, we even succeeded in staying friends when my DR results differed from hers....

 

[wannabeeskipper]

Not sure when the change was made, or even if it was ever specifically outlawed.

The electronics failing as a reason for retirement is an interesting one. My sense is that it would depend on why you were doing the race. If you're in it to win it, then if your electronics fail on the way along the South coast, you're definitely not going to be in the chocolates so may well decide to call it a day. But if you're doing it for the experience, then you'd probably press on.

We retired this year for 'electronics'. In fact, our engine failed, which meant we couldn't charge the batteries. Over the next 6 hours we would have lost all electronic nav, I guess our nav lights too. In addition, I think we would have lost our AIS - it is a rule of the the Fastnet that you need to keep your AIS on - and we felt that there was a risk that if we had a MOB we might not have been able to recover them (if the weather got worse again) and we didn't fancy our skipper featuring in an MAIB report...

...tho' I did notice that one race yacht that seemed to be have been newly purchased by a couple and crewed by 20-somethings did press-on to the finish without electronics. I guess they may have lost theirs later in the race than us (we were about 24 hrs in) or maybe not so substantially or perhaps they had less fear than us!

 

[Mudisox]

Back in the late 60s we had no aids, except the Mk 2 eyeball and a sextant which was often used, for distance off as much as sun/start sights.
Game boy navigation has spoilt it for me, and tactically AIS has also altered the game so it becomes a speed race along a similar track unless your speed differential [ Large Trimarans ] makes a difference.
Better/? maybe, but certainly different. Mind you we also hove to for a hot meal.

 

[Robin]

Back in the late 60s we had no aids, except the Mk 2 eyeball and a sextant which was often used, for distance off as much as sun/start sights.
Game boy navigation has spoilt it for me, and tactically AIS has also altered the game so it becomes a speed race along a similar track unless your speed differential [ Large Trimarans ] makes a difference.
Better/? maybe, but certainly different. Mind you we also hove to for a hot meal.

totally agree. horizontal angles too on sextant

 

[Tradewinds]

Trying to get an RDF fix in the middle of a stormy Irish sea. Give me GPS anytime.

 

[zoidberg]

I got invited along as I had a Consol chart and 'the knowledge', funded by HM Queen. In lousy weather I could always provide a radio-fix ( of sorts ) and a reasoned Most Probable Position. Also, being junior aircrew I could request/be provided with a weather forecast tailored for the race by our tame SMetO in the ATC Tower - and the nous to interpret it.