Reefing the main downwind

[srm]

I don't have Eric Hiscock's "Cruising Under Sail" here to check but, as far as I can recall, one of the reasons (or maybe the reason) he would not have battens in his mainsail was so that they would not get snagged on the shrouds when reefing off the wind.

Last time I bought a mainsail I seriously considered ordering one without battens (and hence no roach). I asked the sailmaker's advice but he dissuaded me from doing so, saying the loss of mainsail area in a boat with a small main and a large genoa would badly affect her performance; and leech flutter would be a problem.

However, thinking about it later, I realised there are many yachts about with in-mast reefing that obviously can't have horizontal battens and so must have a straight leech. In fact I crewed on one crossing the Atlantic not long after. Leech flutter wasn't a problem. Without a similar yacht having roach and battens as a comparator it was impossible to say whether her performance suffered but being able to reef downwind was very convenient.

When I purchased a new main for the Trintella 29 (way back in mid 70's) I specified no battens as a result of reading Hiscock. Cranfields were not too keen but built it for me. However, there was a problem with the leech hooking to windward so the sail went back for a single short batten to be fitted. I did not notice any loss of performance, but then a new sail should always outperform the one it replaces. However, I think the next owner replaced the main to increase the area as he used the boat for club racing.

 

[hrchivers]

Interesting thread contrasting quite different approaches.

I nearly always heave to to reef the main. On battens - my slab-reefed main has a deep third reef and full length battens in the top two slots which gives me a very well supported flat sail fully reefed.

By the way, I have been in a situation where stopping to reef was a bad idea - crossing channel shipping at night.

 

[Orion Jim]

I haul in the main just enough to relieve most of the sails pressure on the standing rigging and the spreaders before releasing the halyard and securing the tack cringle. It's always a struggle when you can't completely relieve pressure on the main. I tend to "reef early and reef often".

 

[BruceDanforth]

I usually furl most of the headsail away and sheet it in a bit to slow things right down, ease the mainsheet and just round up a little bit until the main stalls, pull on the topping lift, ease the halyard and put the reef in. I find it easier, safer and quicker than trying to fight with the sail. I tend to reef conservatively. Afterwards I let some headsail back out and retrim.

 

[alant]

Bearing in mind the title of this sub-forum, and imagining the conditions in which hauling down/reefing the mainsail while constrained to running downwind becomes necessary, it should IMHO be considered prior to the need - as we're doing now. Might I suggest centralising the traveller and hauling in the mainsheet hard such that the sail is leach-on to the wind.... and thus as lightly-loaded as possible in the circumstances. Then a previously-fitted mainsail downhaul line, which is led back to the cockpit for preference, is used together with easing out on the halyard......

Once the sail is down sufficiently - perhaps all the way - then the appropriate reef-tack ring ( thingy? ) is secured at the boom gooseneck.... similar arrangements are made at the reef-clew..... and, when appropriate, the deep-reefed mainsail is rehoisted and trimmed.

If conditions are such, that reefing is necessary, won't your procedure result in a possible knock down?
Keeping the leach exactly into the wind, would need very skilful helming, to stop any wind hitting the sail side on, which would make it weathercock & end up with loss of control & knock down IMO.

Also, how do you control the released leach, as the wind spills it all over the boom/deck?

 

[oldbilbo]

If conditions are such, that reefing is necessary, won't your procedure result in a possible knock down?
Keeping the leach exactly into the wind, would need very skilful helming, to stop any wind hitting the sail side on, which would make it weathercock & end up with loss of control & knock down IMO.

Also, how do you control the released leach, as the wind spills it all over the boom/deck?

Let's visualise this again....

You're running downwind with too much mainsail up, and boat speed is such that you fear an uncontrolled broach and possible damage. Should you be able to round up without laying the boat flat - mast and sails in the water, which is what some would call a 'knockdown' - then by all means do that. However, that is not the situation as I envisaged it....

The situation 'as I understand it' requires one to maintain a downwind course, 'cos that's the only option left available, and the task is to get the mainsail down with wind behind. If it is possible to haul the sail down while it remains pressed against the standing rigging and spreaders - whether using a mainsail downhaul or manual force applied at the mast, by all means do that. That is not the situation as I understand it.

So, with the wind astern/on the quarter, it is necessary to maintain a stable course without a violent rounding-up. It would be helpful if a way could be found to reduce the boat speed markedly, and for this purpose one could consider quickly rigging and trailing several mooring warps in a bight. It may be possible to 'scandalise' the mainsail by hauling the boom up high, but that would be dependent on having enough length of mainsheet tail.... However, once 'scandalised', much of the drive from the mainsail would be dissipated.

By hauling the boom in hard, close to centreline - as if in preparation for a controlled gybe - again much of the drive is lost. Most helmsmen I know are quite capable of steering a boat, in this configuration, within an arc of 20 degrees.

With lazyjacks fitted and pulled up tight, the 'released leech' mentioned is mostly kept captive as the sail is released and hauled down - whether by means of the suggested mainsail downhaul or by manual force at the mast, and thus does NOT spill all over the boom/deck. That is the primary purpose IMHO of lazyjacks.....

It is clearly safer to the singlehanded crewman to be able to complete this from the safety of the cockpit, well under control and while remaining well clipped on, until the drive of the mainsail is reduced to very little and the hazard of potential loss of control has been resolved.


This above is a bit more 'long-winded' than some would need, but is an attempt to describe what many here would be able and prepared to do anyway, day or night.

 

[BruceDanforth]

I always reef down at dusk anyway as a matter of course......

Interesting thread contrasting quite different approaches.

I nearly always heave to to reef the main. On battens - my slab-reefed main has a deep third reef and full length battens in the top two slots which gives me a very well supported flat sail fully reefed.

By the way, I have been in a situation where stopping to reef was a bad idea - crossing channel shipping at night.

 

[alant]

Let's visualise this again....

You're running downwind with too much mainsail up, and boat speed is such that you fear an uncontrolled broach and possible damage. Should you be able to round up without laying the boat flat - mast and sails in the water, which is what some would call a 'knockdown' - then by all means do that. However, that is not the situation as I envisaged it....

The situation 'as I understand it' requires one to maintain a downwind course, 'cos that's the only option left available, and the task is to get the mainsail down with wind behind. If it is possible to haul the sail down while it remains pressed against the standing rigging and spreaders - whether using a mainsail downhaul or manual force applied at the mast, by all means do that. That is not the situation as I understand it.

So, with the wind astern/on the quarter, it is necessary to maintain a stable course without a violent rounding-up. It would be helpful if a way could be found to reduce the boat speed markedly, and for this purpose one could consider quickly rigging and trailing several mooring warps in a bight. It may be possible to 'scandalise' the mainsail by hauling the boom up high, but that would be dependent on having enough length of mainsheet tail.... However, once 'scandalised', much of the drive from the mainsail would be dissipated.

By hauling the boom in hard, close to centreline - as if in preparation for a controlled gybe - again much of the drive is lost. Most helmsmen I know are quite capable of steering a boat, in this configuration, within an arc of 20 degrees.

With lazyjacks fitted and pulled up tight, the 'released leech' mentioned is mostly kept captive as the sail is released and hauled down - whether by means of the suggested mainsail downhaul or by manual force at the mast, and thus does NOT spill all over the boom/deck. That is the primary purpose IMHO of lazyjacks.....

It is clearly safer to the singlehanded crewman to be able to complete this from the safety of the cockpit, well under control and while remaining well clipped on, until the drive of the mainsail is reduced to very little and the hazard of potential loss of control has been resolved.


This above is a bit more 'long-winded' than some would need, but is an attempt to describe what many here would be able and prepared to do anyway, day or night.

Slowing the boat speed down, surely increases the apparent wind & therefore increases the pressure on the mainsail, making dropping it much more difficult.

 

[Poignard]

I always reef down at dusk anyway as a matter of course......

I believe that used to be the practice on ships of the Honourable East India Company

 

[oldbilbo]

Slowing the boat speed down, surely increases the apparent wind & therefore increases the pressure on the mainsail, making dropping it much more difficult.

That is so. A swift multihull ought to be able to reduce the apparent wind 'load' quite significantly, by dint of a significant boat speed. However, at such boat speeds where the pressure in the main is still very high, there is a significant risk of running the bows under and pitchpoling. Often, slowing the boat is the more desired option, if an efective way can be found. A decision must be made.....

'Been there, done that, etc....'

Similarly, on a small 'Jester' sized monohull at speed ( although the boat speed is likely to be sigificantly less ), there is risk of violent broach/'knockdown' if directional control cannot be maintained.

Where it is considered VIP to maintain accurate steering downwind while this sail-reduction task is carried out, then providing a significant drag at the stern - i.e. towed warps - is likely to assist in this. As the struggle to haul down the mainsail is likely to become prolonged, any and all assistance that keeps the bows pointed where one wants 'em is to be encouraged.

This dilemma is explored in successive editions of 'Heavy Weather Sailing' and other tales and publications.

 

[alant]

That is so. A swift multihull ought to be able to reduce the apparent wind 'load' quite significantly, by dint of a significant boat speed. However, at such boat speeds where the pressure in the main is still very high, there is a significant risk of running the bows under and pitchpoling. Often, slowing the boat is the more desired option, if an efective way can be found. A decision must be made.....

'Been there, done that, etc....'

Similarly, on a small 'Jester' sized monohull at speed ( although the boat speed is likely to be sigificantly less ), there is risk of violent broach/'knockdown' if directional control cannot be maintained.

Where it is considered VIP to maintain accurate steering downwind while this sail-reduction task is carried out, then providing a significant drag at the stern - i.e. towed warps - is likely to assist in this. As the struggle to haul down the mainsail is likely to become prolonged, any and all assistance that keeps the bows pointed where one wants 'em is to be encouraged.

This dilemma is explored in successive editions of 'Heavy Weather Sailing' and other tales and publications.

But your scenario, envisages feathering the main directly into wind, so where does this pressure to pitchpole come from, unless the helm loses control & vessel tries to round up? I'm trying to understand the physics!

Also, hauling in the mainsheet in any decent breeze (if able to be done at all), would almost certainly cause the vessel to round up.

 

[BruceDanforth]

I never seem to have the need to reef in macho conditions. Once the boat is doing 5.5 to 6 knots it isn't going any faster by having more sail. The first reef goes in around the top of a 4, the second will be in by a 6. Going down wind I can be getting up to hull speed just on the Genoa. Carrying more canvas just makes the boat slam around and break stuff - it doesn't get me there any quicker and is more stressful and tiring.

 

[Gargleblaster]

My comments may not be appropriate as I feel the thread is looking at conditions from relatively protected waters near to land.
Most of my experience in heavy weather conditions relates to ocean sailing so as I say my comments may not be appropriate. Although Independance who originally asked the question being a Jester Challenge winner I would assume was asking about ocean conditions. And I think Paul may have asked the question from the perspective of how hard it is to turn into the wind and reef or hand the main.
And I am thinking more of conditions where one is attempting to hand the mainsail rather than merely reef.
I find in the ocean it is never the wind that will do you in but the waves. When you are running before a building wind at the same time the waves are building up although fortunately more often than not slower than the wind. As the waves build up it is not always wise in my humble opinion to turn into the wind because as you pass through the wind abeam phase with too much pressure on the sail and the risk of a wave striking you on the beam there is an increased risk of a knock down.
As a result I find the only way to reef or hand in building wind conditions is with the wind astern. Fortunately with a boat smaller than 30 feet pure strength and determination is often sufficient. I usually sheet in the main sufficient to take the majority of the sail off the spreaders as someone has previously described. On my boat over 30 feet I now have in mast furling which is very practical I find in extreme conditions and everything can be done at any point of sail. With pure determination I have managed to hand the main single handed on a 42 feet boat in conditions that were building to a full gale while running down wind. So anything is possible with determination.
One other point about the possibility of pitch poling. The waves as I understand [not having the ability to measure their speed myself] are running at up to 25 knots in a gale, so if one of those breaks as it gets to your stern it may drive your bow in completely independent of what the wind is doing. My experience has been that a breaking wave will generally swing the stern around resulting in a broach and knock down - but then I have never sailed a long keeler in storm force conditions.
Apparent wind reduced by a boat doing 4 knots in a 40 knot wind by reducing the sail is surely negligible, just as a matter of interest.
And it is quite possible to make good 5 knots under bare poles with storm force winds behind you. Just in my own opinion despite the accepted arguments to the contrary I don't think that running before a storm is the wisest course of action, not even in a light displacement boat.

 

[alant]

My comments may not be appropriate as I feel the thread is looking at conditions from relatively protected waters near to land.
Most of my experience in heavy weather conditions relates to ocean sailing so as I say my comments may not be appropriate. Although Independance who originally asked the question being a Jester Challenge winner I would assume was asking about ocean conditions. And I think Paul may have asked the question from the perspective of how hard it is to turn into the wind and reef or hand the main.
And I am thinking more of conditions where one is attempting to hand the mainsail rather than merely reef.
I find in the ocean it is never the wind that will do you in but the waves. When you are running before a building wind at the same time the waves are building up although fortunately more often than not slower than the wind. As the waves build up it is not always wise in my humble opinion to turn into the wind because as you pass through the wind abeam phase with too much pressure on the sail and the risk of a wave striking you on the beam there is an increased risk of a knock down.
As a result I find the only way to reef or hand in building wind conditions is with the wind astern. Fortunately with a boat smaller than 30 feet pure strength and determination is often sufficient. I usually sheet in the main sufficient to take the majority of the sail off the spreaders as someone has previously described. On my boat over 30 feet I now have in mast furling which is very practical I find in extreme conditions and everything can be done at any point of sail. With pure determination I have managed to hand the main single handed on a 42 feet boat in conditions that were building to a full gale while running down wind. So anything is possible with determination.
One other point about the possibility of pitch poling. The waves as I understand [not having the ability to measure their speed myself] are running at up to 25 knots in a gale, so if one of those breaks as it gets to your stern it may drive your bow in completely independent of what the wind is doing. My experience has been that a breaking wave will generally swing the stern around resulting in a broach and knock down - but then I have never sailed a long keeler in storm force conditions.
Apparent wind reduced by a boat doing 4 knots in a 40 knot wind by reducing the sail is surely negligible, just as a matter of interest.
And it is quite possible to make good 5 knots under bare poles with storm force winds behind you. Just in my own opinion despite the accepted arguments to the contrary I don't think that running before a storm is the wisest course of action, not even in a light displacement boat.

I seem to remember a certain Pete Goss, reporting doing 25 knts downwind with 50 knts apparent under bare poles, until that is he was asked to turn back & try to save Raphael Dinelli. When he finally managed to hoist a small storm jib & turn the boat around & sail upwind (wonder why he didn't just put a bit of main up ), he then experienced 75 knts across the deck!

PS the French gave him a medal for that rescue in 1996, but a friend of mine, who did something similar in 1983, BOC Challenge, got nothing! http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/20/sports/technology-luck-save-a-life.html

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Reefing the main dead downwind is bloody hard work and dangerous. Far better to bear off to port, under headsail, just enough to allow you to scandalise the main by hoisting the boom and letting out the mainsheet. The main will, or should, be de-powered and you will be working on the high side rather than a rolling deck (assuming you have to go forward).
That's what I do anyway.
One day I'll look at leading lines aft.

(Confess I've never done it in a big offshore sea)

 

[Triassic]

Hi Guys,
New on here so be gentle with me please.... Getting caught out with to much main up downwind is my biggest nightmare so this thread made interesting reading. I have an F27 Trimaran with a fully battened main that has a rather large square top, plus a bolt rope luff and roller reefing..... If there is any pressure on the main at all it makes it virtually impossible to raise or lower the sail. In theory I should be able to round up under full sail in anything up to about 30 knots but I tried it once in just 25 and it was well.....jolly exciting! This led me to try and work out a system of bearing away and reefing downwind instead, just in case I was stupid enough to get caught out again. I decided to practice in about 15 knots true (so only about 5 knots apparent on the sail) with a crew member to help me at first, and basically if I sheet the main to centre, release the halyard and then carry out a series of controlled gybes I can get the main down a few inches each time, but it's a long job to get down to even the first reefing point. I then tried on my own using the remote on the tiller pilot to gybe the boat (I have to go to the mast to roll the boom) and although it was just about doable there is no way I would want to try it in proper winds in any kind of seaway. You just can't catch the boat fast enough on the tiller pilot as she gybes. The conclusion for me is that it's just not practicable with my current set up, I have to round up and dump the main if I want to reef it.

 

[Gargleblaster]

I have a bolt rope luff on my mono hulled UFO27 and have never had trouble reefing while running in big seas. It takes a lot of muscle power to pull the sail down but if it is sheeted in hard is perfectly manageable. I do have slab reefing which I think helps as when it comes down the amount is not an exact science whereas I imagine with boom roller reefing you may want it to come down in a controlled manner.
I was single handed in one leg of a Pacific Crossing in a Jeanneau 42' and found reefing down wind in that a bit harder in a gale, but did so by using a cunningham in the luff reef cringles. That worked well but was always a bit hairy at night climbing onto the boom to put in the cunningham hook. Maybe not possible with your boom rolling reefing as you probably don't have the luff cringles.
If you do want to continue with reefing without rounding up you may need to consider slab reefing.

 

[Triassic]

I must admit I hadn't thought of using the cunningham tackle (4:1 purchase) to pull the sail down. I have got luff cringles at the two reefing points so it would be a bit of a reach to get a loop through the first one, but I'll have to try that out next time I get the chance, thanks for the suggestion. I might still have a problem relieving the pressure without gybing though and it was the gybe causing the problem single handed. Quite a few F27s have been converted to slides and slab reefing for this very reason, but that brings further complications with all the extra lines when it comes to rigging.

ps: I sail out of the Medway quite a bit, we might have to get together!

 

[Richard01]

Bearing in mind the title of this sub-forum, and imagining the conditions in which hauling down/reefing the mainsail while constrained to running downwind becomes necessary, it should IMHO be considered prior to the need - as we're doing now. Might I suggest centralising the traveller and hauling in the mainsheet hard such that the sail is leach-on to the wind.... and thus as lightly-loaded as possible in the circumstances. Then a previously-fitted mainsail downhaul line, which is led back to the cockpit for preference, is used together with easing out on the halyard......

Once the sail is down sufficiently - perhaps all the way - then the appropriate reef-tack ring ( thingy? ) is secured at the boom gooseneck.... similar arrangements are made at the reef-clew..... and, when appropriate, the deep-reefed mainsail is rehoisted and trimmed.

I think centralising the main makes sense but might be an extremely risky option when running in heavy conditions as it could initiate a serious roundup. It is something that bothers me a lot ...one never knows when one might be accidentally caught running over canvassed in a squall.
I have Selden hydraulic in mast furling and have found that the hydraulics cannot furl the main while it is under pressure (at least not without increasing the torque on the furling "mandrel" substantially..which risks breaking something). The best idea I have seen is to use a preventer to hold the boom firmly out in its running position and then to turn into the wind slightly until the main luffs and the pressure is reduced. If one doesn't hold the boom in place with a preventer it will jerk around and the sail will flog which will prevent it from furling. Ie the idea is to get the boom into the wind to luff the main but keep the boat on a very broad reach which would not be possible without the preventer. I would also start furling the genoa somewhat to reduce the lee helm that would result as soon as the mainsail power is reduced. I'm not sure whether one would want to start by furling the genoa somewhat before luffing up a little to reduce the effect of increasing apparent wind as one turned upwind slightly... the effect of luffing up would in any case reduce genoa power so that could possibly be furled a bit after the main has been reduced.?