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Raspberry Pi - ers, turbo?

2nd_apprentice

Active member
Joined
18 Mar 2007
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2,399
Location
Berlin
Thank you for that perfect example. I did (eventually) find the "man" command. The question that needs answering is why the "man" command isn't the "help" command!
Because Dennis Ritchie, having consulted his crystal ball, wanted to annoy you? ;)

In much the same way as the French try to invent new words to stop their people speaking English, so they have ordinateurs and the rest of the world has computers! :rolleyes:
On the other hand why should we expect the French to use English expressions for everything? That's like using a well known copy paste shortcut under CP/M and then complain because the machine rebooted! Ok, not likely to happen nowadays but when in Rome etc.
 

st599

Well-known member
Joined
9 Jan 2006
Messages
5,202
Thank you for that perfect example. I did (eventually) find the "man" command. The question that needs answering is why the "man" command isn't the "help" command!
If you've never used Linux before, presumably the type of user most likely to need help, which are you more likely to type?
help sudo or
man sudo

I think for 99% of the population the answer to that question is obvious.
I get the impression that Linux (Unix or whatever) goes out of its way NOT to use the same command that their hated DOS users would know. In much the same way as the French try to invent new words to stop their people speaking English, so they have ordinateurs and the rest of the world has computers! :rolleyes:
Seeing as Unix is older than DOS, you're question is the wrong way around.

You could always use the apropos command if you're stuck.
 

CreakyDecks

New member
Joined
9 Sep 2011
Messages
700
Thank you all for illustrating my point so well. The typical response you get when making any query or comment about Linux related Raspberry Pi problems is usually one of condescension. Unix experts have always liked to think of themselves as "gurus" throwing minimal scraps of light on those floundering in the dark. I think this is what will rapidly kill off the Rasberry Pi. It was promoted as something that will get kids back into programming. Somewhere in there is almost certainly a little jewel that could interest kids, but 99% of them won't be bothered to dig through the steaming cow pat that is the Linux operating system to find it!
 

agurney

Active member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
1,496
Thank you all for illustrating my point so well. The typical response you get when making any query or comment about Linux related Raspberry Pi problems is usually one of condescension. Unix experts have always liked to think of themselves as "gurus" throwing minimal scraps of light on those floundering in the dark. I think this is what will rapidly kill off the Rasberry Pi. It was promoted as something that will get kids back into programming. Somewhere in there is almost certainly a little jewel that could interest kids, but 99% of them won't be bothered to dig through the steaming cow pat that is the Linux operating system to find it!
The default distribution has a variety of graphical programming user interfaces that youngsters can use to learn the basic skills; it was never the intention to throw them in at the deep end with a command line interface to Linux.

The reason that it is being discussed in a sailing forum is that a few of us have spotted an opportunity to use the Pi as an inexpensive low-power tool when afloat, and are willing to share our experiences.

I hope that I haven't come over as condescending (though I wouldn't put myself forward as a guru). My scraps of light are only because I've shared experiences as I've encountered them, rather than wait a couple of months until I can find time to write them up in toto.
 

BruceDanforth

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Joined
13 Mar 2004
Messages
17,885
Location
Tyne and Wear
Thank you all for illustrating my point so well. The typical response you get when making any query or comment about Linux related Raspberry Pi problems is usually one of condescension. Unix experts have always liked to think of themselves as "gurus" throwing minimal scraps of light on those floundering in the dark. I think this is what will rapidly kill off the Rasberry Pi. It was promoted as something that will get kids back into programming. Somewhere in there is almost certainly a little jewel that could interest kids, but 99% of them won't be bothered to dig through the steaming cow pat that is the Linux operating system to find it!
1 in a 100 would be a good result.
 

Boreades

New member
Joined
8 Sep 2003
Messages
5,041
Location
Boat:Plymouth, Me:Not Boat
Thank you all for illustrating my point so well. The typical response you get when making any query or comment about Linux related Raspberry Pi problems is usually one of condescension. Unix experts have always liked to think of themselves as "gurus" throwing minimal scraps of light on those floundering in the dark. I think this is what will rapidly kill off the Rasberry Pi. It was promoted as something that will get kids back into programming. Somewhere in there is almost certainly a little jewel that could interest kids, but 99% of them won't be bothered to dig through the steaming cow pat that is the Linux operating system to find it!
I appreciate your frustration at being presented with Linux command line code, it certainly hurt my head when I first started, and I'm a "DOS Dinosaur". But that goes with the territory. Try thinking of it as a challange, not a threat :)

As for the kids, i think you're underestimating how kids think and work, and their enginuity when inspired and motivated. They love FREE software and solving challanges. e.g. I gave my son (age 14) an old PC with Linux installed. Without any help from me, he worked out how to download a free games server package (Minecraft), how to install and configure it from the command line, and how to set the correct rules to allow only his known friends to connect to that games server. That's the kind of attitude we need.

I'm just hoping he can help his retarded old fart of a father to get this RPi + OpenCPN configured and working!
 

CreakyDecks

New member
Joined
9 Sep 2011
Messages
700
Try thinking of it as a challange, not a threat :)
I'm too old for that. In the past I've wasted countless hours learning DOS, CP/M, VAX/VMS, RSX-11 and probably one or two other operating systems that I've forgotten about, hours that I will never get back! I just want to buy an SD card for my Pi that I can plug in, switch on and start using it to write useful programs (on the internet, via wifi from my living room!) If the geeks weren't so up themselves they'd realize that there is a massive market for completely pre-installed systems. The only customization I think should be necessary is entering my SSID and Password!

PS. Good luck with the nav software I think it's a great idea.
 

Conachair

Guest
Joined
24 Jan 2004
Messages
5,168
Location
London
I'm too old for that. In the past I've wasted countless hours learning DOS, CP/M, VAX/VMS, RSX-11 and probably one or two other operating systems that I've forgotten about, hours that I will never get back! I just want to buy an SD card for my Pi that I can plug in, switch on and start using it to write useful programs (on the internet, via wifi from my living room!) If the geeks weren't so up themselves they'd realize that there is a massive market for completely pre-installed systems. The only customization I think should be necessary is entering my SSID and Password!

PS. Good luck with the nav software I think it's a great idea.
Loading the latest raspian o/s isn't exactly what you would call difficult, then a few minutes set up and pi boots straight into graphical desktop every time. Python prog language preoaded. No need to go near that nasty command line stuff. for at least 3 minutes until you get bored and want to see what's under the bonnet ;)
 

spynappels

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7 Jul 2004
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197
Location
Northern Ireland
Loading the latest raspian o/s isn't exactly what you would call difficult, then a few minutes set up and pi boots straight into graphical desktop every time. Python prog language preoaded. No need to go near that nasty command line stuff. for at least 3 minutes until you get bored and want to see what's under the bonnet ;)
True, even using the original Debian image, you could copy it on to an SD card, boot up, enter your username and password, and then a single 6 letter command got you a graphical desktop, even without tinkering to get that to happen automatically, it does not take a guru to do that.

But by all means, use what works for you, now can I have your RasPi as you don't seem to want it?
 

CreakyDecks

New member
Joined
9 Sep 2011
Messages
700
Loading the latest raspian o/s isn't exactly what you would call difficult, then a few minutes set up and pi boots straight into graphical desktop every time. Python prog language preoaded. No need to go near that nasty command line stuff. for at least 3 minutes until you get bored and want to see what's under the bonnet ;)
It took me two hours to get the wifi to work in both command line and GUI modes. It's all done now, so hopefully I can forget all that stuff now :D
I can't remember the last time I opened the bonnet on my car, I just expect it to go. The days when I enjoyed playing with ignition timing and mixture screws have long gone :D
 

Conachair

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It took me two hours to get the wifi to work in both command line and GUI modes. It's all done now, so hopefully I can forget all that stuff now :D
I can't remember the last time I opened the bonnet on my car, I just expect it to go. The days when I enjoyed playing with ignition timing and mixture screws have long gone :D
Sounds like buying a computer for 25 qud which comes without a case or hard drive and expecting to have your hand held all the way might not be quite working out. ;) maybe an iPad? ;) ;)1
 

agurney

Active member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
1,496
It took me two hours to get the wifi to work in both command line and GUI modes. It's all done now, so hopefully I can forget all that stuff now :D
I can't remember the last time I opened the bonnet on my car, I just expect it to go. The days when I enjoyed playing with ignition timing and mixture screws have long gone :D
If it's working, take a backup of the SD card image. If the card is damaged you don' want to have to rebuild it.
 

CreakyDecks

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9 Sep 2011
Messages
700
Sounds like buying a computer for 25 qud which comes without a case or hard drive and expecting to have your hand held all the way might not be quite working out. ;) maybe an iPad? ;) ;)1
Not the case at all. It is now done and I can start playing with it.
My point is that what should have been a trivially easy exercise (setting up wifi) was turned into something much harder than it should have been by people more interested in demonstrating their own vast knowledge than solving my problem.

agurney, is there a utility I can use to copy the SD card contents to a file on my laptop?
 

agurney

Active member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
1,496
Not the case at all. It is now done and I can start playing with it.
My point is that what should have been a trivially easy exercise (setting up wifi) was turned into something much harder than it should have been by people more interested in demonstrating their own vast knowledge than solving my problem.

agurney, is there a utility I can use to copy the SD card contents to a file on my laptop?
Win32DiskImager , see http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads
 
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