Race Start Incident

blade

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Hello all, here is a short video of a race incident at the start of yesterday's regatta. I would be interested to hear your views on the rights and wrongs of this, and what if any redress should have taken place. I am on one of the boats but will not say which one for the moment.

Thanks

 

flaming

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Hello all, here is a short video of a race incident at the start of yesterday's regatta. I would be interested to hear your views on the rights and wrongs of this, and what if any redress should have taken place. I am on one of the boats but will not say which one for the moment.

Thanks

I was expecting to have to write "Camera evidence can be unreliable..." But that's extremely blatant.

Surprised this is in question. Pretty obvious foul from the windward boat on the camera boat. Boat below the camera boat also fouled by the camera boat, but it is likely that a protest committee would rule that the camera boat was forced into fouling the leward boat by the boat breaking a rule.

Helm of the windward boat needs a rules lesson.
 

blade

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I was expecting to have to write "Camera evidence can be unreliable..." But that's extremely blatant.

Surprised this is in question. Pretty obvious foul from the windward boat on the camera boat. Boat below the camera boat also fouled by the camera boat, but it is likely that a protest committee would rule that the camera boat was forced into fouling the leward boat by the boat breaking a rule.

Helm of the windward boat needs a rules lesson.
Thanks for the reply Flaming, having read most of your posts over the last few years I value your opinion. Pretty much exactly as I thought, I was on the helm of the boat to leeward of the camera boat - not my planned position to start, but heyho.
 

flaming

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Thanks for the reply Flaming, having read most of your posts over the last few years I value your opinion. Pretty much exactly as I thought, I was on the helm of the boat to leeward of the camera boat - not my planned position to start, but heyho.
Easy to be wise with hindsight, but from where you were when your bow went down to go behind the camera boat, I think the better call might have been to luff and wait for the camera boat to put the bow down. Sacrificing the chance of a perfect start for the certainty of clear air.

When you're racing big heavy boats it's very hard to get around the back of a boat that doesn't want you to. That close to the start signal in light winds I'd have thought waiting and then ensuring clean air (barging boats aside!) and the option to tack off would have been the better bet. It's a very long way round to clear air on the other side and if you don't make it you take a lot of pain before you can tack and get clear.
 

st599

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Would the new rule change for next year exonerating forced collisions with no damage/injury have allowed you to race whilst he penalty turned?
 

dombuckley

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OK Four boats involved:

Boat A is camera boat.
Boat B is black-sailed boat overtaking to leeward.
Boat C is white sailed boat overtaking to leeward.
Boat D is white sailed boat overtaking to windward.

Boat A is luffing well above close-hauled prior to start, with little way on, almost stalled, beginning to go sideways. Boats B and C sailing close hauled both establish overlap to leeward, with C between B and A.
C has established overlap on B to windward, so must keep clear of B. She has also established an overlap to leeward on A: A should keep clear, but C needs to give A sufficient time to alter course. B would normally be able to luff C as she liked, but she is also overlapped to leeward on A. Note this is before the start gun, so there is no "proper course", and both B and C have the right to luff head to wind, but must gave A the opportunity to keep clear.

Boat D overtakes the group to windward, but fails to keep clear. Impact occurs before the start signal, while there is no "proper course", and nothing to prevent her luffing to avoid collision (except desire to stay below the line). Boat D is liable for collision between Boats D and A .

Boat A is unable to avoid collision with Boat C due to presence of Boat D, while Boat B (which established overlap on A to leeward from astern), and should have given both Boat A and Boat C opportunity to keep clear.

Primary fault lies with Boat D; Boat B arguably also bears some blame for continuing the luff while C and A were obstructed from keeping clear. Boats A and C were not at fault, but it was a bit of a boathandling mistake for A to stall on the line.
 

blade

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OK Four boats involved:

Boat A is camera boat.
Boat B is black-sailed boat overtaking to leeward.
Boat C is white sailed boat overtaking to leeward.
Boat D is white sailed boat overtaking to windward.

Boat A is luffing well above close-hauled prior to start, with little way on, almost stalled, beginning to go sideways. Boats B and C sailing close hauled both establish overlap to leeward, with C between B and A.
C has established overlap on B to windward, so must keep clear of B. She has also established an overlap to leeward on A: A should keep clear, but C needs to give A sufficient time to alter course. B would normally be able to luff C as she liked, but she is also overlapped to leeward on A. Note this is before the start gun, so there is no "proper course", and both B and C have the right to luff head to wind, but must gave A the opportunity to keep clear.

Boat D overtakes the group to windward, but fails to keep clear. Impact occurs before the start signal, while there is no "proper course", and nothing to prevent her luffing to avoid collision (except desire to stay below the line). Boat D is liable for collision between Boats D and A .

Boat A is unable to avoid collision with Boat C due to presence of Boat D, while Boat B (which established overlap on A to leeward from astern), and should have given both Boat A and Boat C opportunity to keep clear.

Primary fault lies with Boat D; Boat B arguably also bears some blame for continuing the luff while C and A were obstructed from keeping clear. Boats A and C were not at fault, but it was a bit of a boathandling mistake for A to stall on the line.

Thanks for your reply. An interesting analysis of the situation, below is a photo from the rear, moments after boat D impacted with boat A, which I think subsequently pushed boat A onto boat C. If you zoom in on the photo you can just make out the mast and spreaders of boat D between the mast area of boat A. It can be seen that boat B wasn't overluffing boat C and boat C wasn't particularly over luffing boat A (boat C, is a Jeanneau 36i and boat A is a First 40.7 which can point higher, and has a habit of almost heading into wind at the start before putting the bow down)

IMG-20201019-WA0001.jpg
 

blade

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Easy to be wise with hindsight, but from where you were when your bow went down to go behind the camera boat, I think the better call might have been to luff and wait for the camera boat to put the bow down. Sacrificing the chance of a perfect start for the certainty of clear air.

When you're racing big heavy boats it's very hard to get around the back of a boat that doesn't want you to. That close to the start signal in light winds I'd have thought waiting and then ensuring clean air (barging boats aside!) and the option to tack off would have been the better bet. It's a very long way round to clear air on the other side and if you don't make it you take a lot of pain before you can tack and get clear.
An interesting observation and alternative plan. My plan had been to be further down the line in clean air as generally a lot of boats congregate around the committee boat with the resulting raised voices and stress. Hadn't timed the return to the line quite right and ended up where I did. Was aware that the camera boat likes to luff up hard, almost head to wind (a First 40.7) hence why I decided to duck under him, almost worked but hadn't banked on the barging boat upsetting our plans.
 

Birdseye

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I dont understand why the windward boat didnt take avoidance steps - he had room to do so as far as can be seen. It almost looks like a beginner helm forgetting that his boat pivots round the keel so as he bore away too sharply his stern swung towards the camera boat. Thats something that I have had happen to me.

I did think that a boat in a collision had to retire there and then but I cant find any reference to that in RRS.
 
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RJJ

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I dont understand why the windward boat didnt take avoidance steps - he had room to do so as far as can be seen. It almost looks like a beginner helm forgetting that his boat pivots round the keel so as he bore away too sharply his stern swung towards the camera boat. Thats something that I have had happen to me.

I did think that a boat in a collision had to retire there and then but I cant find any reference to that in RRS.
Boat in collision may believe she is "in the right" and take it to the protest.

I agree with the (unanimous) verdict here. Windward boat fouled, blatantly, and should be lobbed. Possibly the camera boat also fouled the boat that came in to leeward of her, but hard to tell and the camera boat could legimately say she was trying to manage risk of damage from the windward cowboy.

There is no obligation for a boat in a collision to retire. A boat in a collision should either retire or protest; if neither boat protests then it is legitimate for a third boat to protest them both. Which incidentally happened to me, in almost the same circumstances of the video:. We were the "camera boat" and didn't protest; leeward boat protested us (for fouling them); we were by this time unable to protest the windward boat (which had hit us and was the only contact in the event), so we and the windward boat were both DSQ. Lesson learned: fly the flag, hail protest and you can always withdraw it if you wish.

All boats are of course bound by the fundamental rule to avoid collision at all times. In the video, the windward boat is at risk of being black-flagged from the event in my opinion: a blatant and easily-avoided foul that probably did some damage and could have hurt someone.
 

dombuckley

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Actually, looking at that photo and then re-watching the vid, I'm not sure Boat A is entirely blameless.

At the beginning, Boat A is going slowly, above close-hauled. At 0:29 the helm turns to starboard, head to wind, to prevent Boat C overtaking to windward. As she goes under his stern, the helm turns back to port: at 0:45, you can see the boat is virtually stationary, pivoting on the spot, with Boat C overtaking quickly to leeward.

By 0:50 the genoa is full, indicating she is close hauled, but still going very slow and dropping sideways onto C. C can't bear away, as this would swing the stern even closer to A. A few seconds later, Boat D drives in from windward and causes a collision. However, I'm pretty sure A would have fouled C anyway. Effectively, the actions of Boat D saved Boat A from closer examination.
 

flaming

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An interesting observation and alternative plan. My plan had been to be further down the line in clean air as generally a lot of boats congregate around the committee boat with the resulting raised voices and stress. Hadn't timed the return to the line quite right and ended up where I did. Was aware that the camera boat likes to luff up hard, almost head to wind (a First 40.7) hence why I decided to duck under him, almost worked but hadn't banked on the barging boat upsetting our plans.
The thing about start plans is that frequently events conspire to require you to change them. Either your own mistake in not returning to the line soon enough, or other boats getting in the way.

One of the hardest things to do is to recognise when your plan has failed and quickly compute what your best option is. This is rarely to plow on with your existing plan. One of the best starts I ever got came about because I made a right hash of my planned mid line start and was buried in the pack. Had the option to flop onto port with about 30s to go and took it, ducked the first couple of starboard boats and then realised that the tide pushing everyone over meant the whole fleet was early and there was a gap at the committee boat. Wound up starting at the boat, on port, at the gun with the whole crew just laughing at the audacity of it. You never plan that sort of start!

Often knowing your opposition can really help. For example in this case you know that 40.7 likes to be head to wind, so if you want to go round him, really sheet in and go full pelt. You stand more chance of making it. In the video you are approaching slowly with the jib luffing, that wasn't going to work as you didn't have enough speed differential to get round him. Otherwise you know with him that he's not going to be able to completely shut the door at the committee boat because he's too close and too slow. The windward boat in the video was quite able to get between the 40.7 and the committee boat, their foul is later. To shut the door the 40.7 needed to be about 2 boatlengths to starboard and fractionally later.

If I was you I would have a rule not to dive under anyone with less than a minute remaining. Even if they don't put the bow down it will take you the best part of 20s to get past them in that sort of conditions. In that video you make the decision at 33s. Despite them being so slow you aren't past them and in clear air at 57s when the camera pans to windward. That's a lot, and makes it extremely hard to do that and get back up to the line if you have less than a minute remaining. And if they go bow down and accelerate you stand almost no chance. Far better to use your speed to luff and take the option of being level with them to windward. Clear air, clear air, clear air...

In general though, excluding be fouled by errant windward boats, in light winds it is extremely unlikely that more than 1 or 2 boats will get a good start at the committee boat end. I only really ever even try it if going right is the only option up the beat. And especially when handicap racing as you're racing the clock more than the other boats. Speed, speed, speed!

And then knowing who is likely to pull a move like windward and avoiding them if possible... You may be in the right, but it doesn't prevent you from being buried in the pack whilst your main competition sails off in clear air...
 

flaming

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I dont understand why the windward boat didnt take avoidance steps - he had room to do so as far as can be seen. It almost looks like a beginner helm forgetting that his boat pivots round the keel so as he bore away too sharply his stern swung towards the camera boat. Thats something that I have had happen to me.

I did think that a boat in a collision had to retire there and then but I cant find any reference to that in RRS.
Rules 14 and 44 are the relevant ones.
14 AVOIDING CONTACT A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

44.1 Taking a Penalty A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing. She may take a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Alternatively, sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty, in which case the specified penalty shall replace the One-Turn and the Two-Turns Penalty. However,
(a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31;
(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or, despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.
So we see that all boats have a duty to avoid collisions. And that if a collision causes serious damage or gains a significant advantage shall retire. No need to retire for a kiss like in the video, unless you deem her to have gained a significant advantage.

And I think that the camera boat would be exonerated under both 14 a and b in this case in regard to the collision.
 

TernVI

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In club races where there are:
cowboys
beginners
people not taking anything seriously
people who will whine if you protest

I usually forget about what would be good starting tactics in a respectable dinghy fleet and just aim for clear air. And space on the water.
The pack squabbling over the best position at the RH end of the line will usually slow one another down.

Consider the other end of the line or ducking them on port.
Season before last, I was trying to improve my starting, which didn't always work.
But I actually won a couple of races where I'd been over the line at the gun, around the end and off in clean air and clear water.
 
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