Portuguese residency - current situation - advice needed

Pavalijo

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Hi Pavaligo,

Believe you are in Portugal - how is it all working out?

Hi Nortada,
Yes we decided to drive from Halifax via Dover-Calais to firstly visit the boat in Galicia (charge batteries, turn engine over, exercise seacocks, run the fridge, resecure the cover etc) and then drive down to Lagos to try and get a residency, given that we intend to base ourselves here going forwards.

We called at the Camara to make an appointment and pick up forms. The lady on the front desk told us we don’t need a fiscal number and don’t need to book in anywhere to be able to provide address validation. She said that we could use the address of a neighbour or friend, so we could use the address of the boat of the friends we are staying with. We would only need our passport.

Simple we thought. However it became apparent at interview that we had a jobsworth (a very lovely young lady who goes by the book).

We explained that we had a booking from 1.8.20 into the Sopramar boatyard to get work done but were delayed by Covid. We said that we would be bringing the boat down as possible but we would probably not arrive in Lagos before late May.

Firstly she would not accept the boat as an address without a contract. Our friend sent that to me immediately but as it was in his name we had to get a statement from the owner or marina that we were living there. When asked how long we are there for we said we are only here for a short period as we cannot ask our friends to lie.

We had heard that people had obtained residency using a 2 day camper van site booking as their address (possibly Albufeira from memory) but our lady in Lagos said a campsite booking (or presumably an apartment) would need to be for longer than a month.

If we don’t have proof of a long stay address and are leaving and coming back then she said that we would have to register our presence in the Algarve before 31.12.20 and then return within 6 months and apply for the tenancy with our marina contract. But then again we wouldn’t be taking a contract until September!
So without lying we are not in a position to obtain our tenancy.

However with some of the terms of residency explained to us we are not sure that we want to obtain the status.

Firstly we would be expected to be in Portugal for at least 6 months in EVERY year. If not the residency would be rescinded. Some years will will be here for more than 6 months, but not every year.

Secondly we said that we would be traveling around on the boat in the summer but in winter would drive down with our car and use the boat as a holiday home. The young lady and her supervisor (brought in to help given our complications) confirmed that it would be illegal for us to drive our U.K. registered car once we have resident status. They couldn’t tell us what the implications would be if caught and referred us to another agency (IMT).

Another appointment was made for us to go back with address confirmation after the weekend, but we have decided to withdraw. We could say that we will return and live here within a month or two and then go back up to Spain for the boat and that we will not be out of Portugal for 6 months - but we would be uncomfortable lying, and more importantly than that, tripping around in our car is important to us.

I cannot believe that Portugal will not create some form of long stay holiday visa for Brits - given the numbers who spend more than 90 in 180 but less than 183 days a year in Portugal in boats, second homes, camper vans and the snow bird winter long lets. And of course the fact that some who might normally visit for a few months may have to restrict time in Portugal if they intend using some of their Schengen allowance in other countries.

I see that even France are going to offer a long stay visa to Brits..
Apparently 99euro for up to 12 months. Link here
Tourist or Private visit | France-Visas.gouv.fr

I have read that Greece have made a statement to the effect that they will put something in place so as not to lose British visitors.

So we will wait and see what happens before resolving our plans going forward. I strongly suspect that announcements will be made as soon as any Brexit deal is done or the transition period ends.

Fortunately our journey is not wasted as we travelled to Galicia to check the boat, charge batteries adjust the cover etc and are now having a nice holiday here on the Algarve.
Who knows when we will be back!!
Regards
Paul
 

jordanbasset

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Hi Nortada,
Yes we decided to drive from Halifax via Dover-Calais to firstly visit the boat in Galicia (charge batteries, turn engine over, exercise seacocks, run the fridge, resecure the cover etc) and then drive down to Lagos to try and get a residency, given that we intend to base ourselves here going forwards.

We called at the Camara to make an appointment and pick up forms. The lady on the front desk told us we don’t need a fiscal number and don’t need to book in anywhere to be able to provide address validation. She said that we could use the address of a neighbour or friend, so we could use the address of the boat of the friends we are staying with. We would only need our passport.

Simple we thought. However it became apparent at interview that we had a jobsworth (a very lovely young lady who goes by the book).

We explained that we had a booking from 1.8.20 into the Sopramar boatyard to get work done but were delayed by Covid. We said that we would be bringing the boat down as possible but we would probably not arrive in Lagos before late May.

Firstly she would not accept the boat as an address without a contract. Our friend sent that to me immediately but as it was in his name we had to get a statement from the owner or marina that we were living there. When asked how long we are there for we said we are only here for a short period as we cannot ask our friends to lie.

We had heard that people had obtained residency using a 2 day camper van site booking as their address (possibly Albufeira from memory) but our lady in Lagos said a campsite booking (or presumably an apartment) would need to be for longer than a month.

If we don’t have proof of a long stay address and are leaving and coming back then she said that we would have to register our presence in the Algarve before 31.12.20 and then return within 6 months and apply for the tenancy with our marina contract. But then again we wouldn’t be taking a contract until September!
So without lying we are not in a position to obtain our tenancy.

However with some of the terms of residency explained to us we are not sure that we want to obtain the status.

Firstly we would be expected to be in Portugal for at least 6 months in EVERY year. If not the residency would be rescinded. Some years will will be here for more than 6 months, but not every year.

Secondly we said that we would be traveling around on the boat in the summer but in winter would drive down with our car and use the boat as a holiday home. The young lady and her supervisor (brought in to help given our complications) confirmed that it would be illegal for us to drive our U.K. registered car once we have resident status. They couldn’t tell us what the implications would be if caught and referred us to another agency (IMT).

Another appointment was made for us to go back with address confirmation after the weekend, but we have decided to withdraw. We could say that we will return and live here within a month or two and then go back up to Spain for the boat and that we will not be out of Portugal for 6 months - but we would be uncomfortable lying, and more importantly than that, tripping around in our car is important to us.

I cannot believe that Portugal will not create some form of long stay holiday visa for Brits - given the numbers who spend more than 90 in 180 but less than 183 days a year in Portugal in boats, second homes, camper vans and the snow bird winter long lets. And of course the fact that some who might normally visit for a few months may have to restrict time in Portugal if they intend using some of their Schengen allowance in other countries.

I see that even France are going to offer a long stay visa to Brits..
Apparently 99euro for up to 12 months. Link here
Tourist or Private visit | France-Visas.gouv.fr

I have read that Greece have made a statement to the effect that they will put something in place so as not to lose British visitors.

So we will wait and see what happens before resolving our plans going forward. I strongly suspect that announcements will be made as soon as any Brexit deal is done or the transition period ends.

Fortunately our journey is not wasted as we travelled to Galicia to check the boat, charge batteries adjust the cover etc and are now having a nice holiday here on the Algarve.
Who knows when we will be back!!
Regards
Paul
Thanks for posting, very useful to have a first hand account. The minimum stay of 6 months is the same as we were told for Spain, which was one of the reasons we did not go ahead with it as we would not be there for 6 months each year
 

RAI

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Waste of time bothering to apply. Once residence is granted, there are no checks so can't understand why anyone would tell them they won't be there. Hardly surprising it was refused.
Trips to outside of the EU will be logged in the Schengen database. Same as the check on the 90 in 180 day visits. Ok for inter EU travel I guess.
 

Graham376

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Trips to outside of the EU will be logged in the Schengen database. Same as the check on the 90 in 180 day visits. Ok for inter EU travel I guess.

The five year residence is generally a local matter and I know many people who have residence but spend far less than six months in Portugal with no problems. When applying for permanent status at SEF (Immigration Dept.) at the end of five years, they are looking for settled status with a genuine address, utility bills, sufficient funds, etc.
 

Pavalijo

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Waste of time bothering to apply. Once residence is granted, there are no checks so can't understand why anyone would tell them they won't be there. Hardly surprising it was refused.
We told them that we would be staying more than 6 months each year, but we weren’t prepared to have our friends perjure themselves by writing a statement that we were staying with them for a lengthy time - especially at a time when they are applying for citizenship!
Had the First Lady we met been the one doing the interview we would have a residency certificate now.
 

greeny

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Secondly we said that we would be traveling around on the boat in the summer but in winter would drive down with our car and use the boat as a holiday home. The young lady and her supervisor (brought in to help given our complications) confirmed that it would be illegal for us to drive our U.K. registered car once we have resident status. They couldn’t tell us what the implications would be if caught and referred us to another agency (IMT).

Once residency is obtained it is necessary to exchange your uk driving license for a portuguese one. This means you cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle whilst in Portugal. This is a requirement that many of the "newly" registered residents are choosing to ignore. Their intent is to be resident for travel and living purposes but pretend to be a tourist if stopped by police for a license check or/and whilst driving their uk car. This ploy has worked for many people for many years but what will happen after brexit we don't know. Before brexit the police checks were fairly cursory but did sometimes highlight a car that had overstayed its 6 month limit. Licenses were generally accepted as read.
 

25931

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Once residency is obtained it is necessary to exchange your uk driving license for a portuguese one. This means you cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle whilst in Portugal. This is a requirement that many of the "newly" registered residents are choosing to ignore. Their intent is to be resident for travel and living purposes but pretend to be a tourist if stopped by police for a license check or/and whilst driving their uk car. This ploy has worked for many people for many years but what will happen after brexit we don't know. Before brexit the police checks were fairly cursory but did sometimes highlight a car that had overstayed its 6 month limit. Licenses were generally accepted as read.
A fair nº have paid fines and even lost the car, there is also the complication of mot ,road tax and insurance including dates shown thereon.
 

nortada

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Hi Nortada,
Yes we decided to drive from Halifax via Dover-Calais to firstly visit the boat in Galicia (charge batteries, turn engine over, exercise seacocks, run the fridge, resecure the cover etc) and then drive down to Lagos to try and get a residency, given that we intend to base ourselves here going forwards.

We called at the Camara to make an appointment and pick up forms. The lady on the front desk told us we don’t need a fiscal number and don’t need to book in anywhere to be able to provide address validation. She said that we could use the address of a neighbour or friend, so we could use the address of the boat of the friends we are staying with. We would only need our passport.

Simple we thought. However it became apparent at interview that we had a jobsworth (a very lovely young lady who goes by the book).

We explained that we had a booking from 1.8.20 into the Sopramar boatyard to get work done but were delayed by Covid. We said that we would be bringing the boat down as possible but we would probably not arrive in Lagos before late May.

Firstly she would not accept the boat as an address without a contract. Our friend sent that to me immediately but as it was in his name we had to get a statement from the owner or marina that we were living there. When asked how long we are there for we said we are only here for a short period as we cannot ask our friends to lie.

We had heard that people had obtained residency using a 2 day camper van site booking as their address (possibly Albufeira from memory) but our lady in Lagos said a campsite booking (or presumably an apartment) would need to be for longer than a month.

If we don’t have proof of a long stay address and are leaving and coming back then she said that we would have to register our presence in the Algarve before 31.12.20 and then return within 6 months and apply for the tenancy with our marina contract. But then again we wouldn’t be taking a contract until September!
So without lying we are not in a position to obtain our tenancy.

However with some of the terms of residency explained to us we are not sure that we want to obtain the status.

Firstly we would be expected to be in Portugal for at least 6 months in EVERY year. If not the residency would be rescinded. Some years will will be here for more than 6 months, but not every year.

Secondly we said that we would be traveling around on the boat in the summer but in winter would drive down with our car and use the boat as a holiday home. The young lady and her supervisor (brought in to help given our complications) confirmed that it would be illegal for us to drive our U.K. registered car once we have resident status. They couldn’t tell us what the implications would be if caught and referred us to another agency (IMT).

Another appointment was made for us to go back with address confirmation after the weekend, but we have decided to withdraw. We could say that we will return and live here within a month or two and then go back up to Spain for the boat and that we will not be out of Portugal for 6 months - but we would be uncomfortable lying, and more importantly than that, tripping around in our car is important to us.

I cannot believe that Portugal will not create some form of long stay holiday visa for Brits - given the numbers who spend more than 90 in 180 but less than 183 days a year in Portugal in boats, second homes, camper vans and the snow bird winter long lets. And of course the fact that some who might normally visit for a few months may have to restrict time in Portugal if they intend using some of their Schengen allowance in other countries.

I see that even France are going to offer a long stay visa to Brits..

Apparently €99 for up to 12 months. Link here:-

Tourist or Private visit | France-Visas.gouv.fr

I have read that Greece have made a statement to the effect that they will put something in place so as not to lose British visitors.

So we will wait and see what happens before resolving our plans going forward. I strongly suspect that announcements will be made as soon as any Brexit deal is done or the transition period ends.

Fortunately our journey is not wasted as we travelled to Galicia to check the boat, charge batteries adjust the cover etc and are now having a nice holiday here on the Algarve.
Who knows when we will be back!!
Regards
Paul

Hi P,

Many thanks for a very full and frank debrief that I anticipate will be cautionary advice to those hoping to get residency and a timely reminder of the implications of residency to temporary residents.

I think the crux of your problem was you are not living in Portugal and even if you were, you were not prepared to commit to spending at least 6 months per year in Portugal for the next 5 years.

Knowing a growing number of boaties, who have got temporary residency, it is becoming increasingly apparent that many have no intention to comply with the requirement to spend minimum of 50% of their time in Portugal.

Many believe they will be able to continue to live under the radar but unless they remain in Portugal or Portuguese Waters permanently, the biometric residency permit, the Schengen Database and the European Travel Information and Authorization System (ETIAS) tracking requirements will make that impossible

It will be interesting to see how Portugal handles this. I anticipate this may come to a head within the next few months, when folk go to SEF to convert to the biometric residency permit or later, when their 5 years temporary residency is up and they will have to convert to the 10 year permanent residency.

Interested to hear, France and Greece are considering ways to permit Brits to spend longer than 90 days contiguously in their countries❓

Looking to the future, your thoughts on Portugal and long-term tourists, I would be rather surprised if Portugal makes a unilateral exception and grants Brits longer stay visas as it would fly in the face of Schengen and could bring EU wrath down upon Portugal. Remember Portugal is a recipient nation and continually receives significant financial support from the EU. Now if the EU agree to reciprocate to the UK suggestion that both EU and UK citizens could get a 6 month visa; then that could be a game changer.

Interested to hear, France and Greece are considering ways to permit Brits to spend longer than 90 days contiguously in their countries❓

Cheers,

N.
 
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nortada

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Once residency is obtained it is necessary to exchange your uk driving license for a portuguese one. This means you cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle whilst in Portugal. This is a requirement that many of the "newly" registered residents are choosing to ignore. Their intent is to be resident for travel and living purposes but pretend to be a tourist if stopped by police for a license check or/and whilst driving their uk car. This ploy has worked for many people for many years but what will happen after brexit we don't know. Before brexit the police checks were fairly cursory but did sometimes highlight a car that had overstayed its 6 month limit. Licenses were generally accepted as read.

Correct, if you intend to drive in Portugal but like many boaties, because of the excellent, inexpensive public transport system (including inexpensive cabs), we do not drive in Portugal so the issue of driving licenses doesn’t arise.
 
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nortada

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The five year residence is generally a local matter and I know many people who have residence but spend far less than six months in Portugal with no problems. When applying for permanent status at SEF (Immigration Dept.) at the end of five years, they are looking for settled status with a genuine address, utility bills, sufficient funds, etc.

Indeed, berth-holders applying for permanent residency is going to be interesting.

Whilst it is clearly stated that residency is not linked to property ownership, SEF will want to establish your settled status. I anticipate that meeting the 50% ‘time in country’ will be a starting point. This is where the Schengen Data Base and European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) could provide useful evidence. For older residents, occupational, private and State Pension (small as it is) should establish an adequate income and a long term berthing contract meet the residential needs but it could be prudent to also rent ashore while processing the application.

As we know we’ll, it may come down to the official you meet on the day so ‘letters of introduction’ from or better still , the presence of an influential Portuguese citizen to help put your case could be invaluable.

As is well known in Portugal, it is not what you know but who.?
 

25931

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Indeed, berth-holders applying for permanent residency is going to be interesting.

Whilst it is clearly stated that residency is not linked to property ownership, SEF will want to establish your settled status. I anticipate that meeting the 50% ‘time in country’ will be a starting point. This is where the Schengen Data Base and European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) could provide useful evidence. For older residents, occupational, private and State Pension (small as it is) should establish an adequate income and a long term berthing contract meet the residential needs but it could be prudent to also rent ashore while processing the application.

As we know we’ll, it may come down to the official you meet on the day so ‘letters of introduction’ from or better still , the presence of an influential Portuguese citizen to help put your case could be invaluable.

As is well known in Portugal, it is not what you know but who.?
Renting ashore presents problems, especially in holiday areas such as the Algarve where even students have difficulties. To be accepted for the purpose of residencia you would need a contract which the landlord has to declare to the Finanças.
 

nortada

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Renting ashore presents problems, especially in holiday areas such as the Algarve where even students have difficulties. To be accepted for the purpose of residencia you would need a contract which the landlord has to declare to the Finanças.

Good point, but from experience, it is not too difficult to rent a summer let, in winter, which would otherwise remained vacant.

Assume the landlord has to declare all income to the finanças. ;)
 

webcraft

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Well, marooned in Cascais with a broken engine and revisiting this. Portuguese daughter in law is asking a solicitor friend of hers if she can organise temporary residency for me.

Initially I didn't see the point, as we wouldn't be sailing back to Portugal from the Canaries very often. Madeira though could provide an attractive bolthole when running short of 90/180 allowance.

I would be very unlikely to ever spend 6 months in Portugal or the islands, and understand that as a result, if discovered, I could have the residency removed. Seems worth a punt though if DIL's solicitor friend thinks it is possible.

- W
 

nortada

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Well, marooned in Cascais with a broken engine and revisiting this. Portuguese daughter in law is asking a solicitor friend of hers if she can organise temporary residency for me.

Initially I didn't see the point, as we wouldn't be sailing back to Portugal from the Canaries very often. Madeira though could provide an attractive bolthole when running short of 90/180 allowance.

I would be very unlikely to ever spend 6 months in Portugal or the islands, and understand that as a result, if discovered, I could have the residency removed. Seems worth a punt though if DIL's solicitor friend thinks it is possible.

- W

Sorry to hear about the engine - hope the hole in the pocket is not too large and you are not delayed for too long.

Understand, you are stuck in Cascais so getting temporary Portuguese residency could be a smart move.

As you are heading for The Canaries, I assume you longer term aim is to get residency in Spain❓

It would follow that you would then have unlimited stay in The Canaries so how would Portuguese Madeira prove a bolt hole if you are running short of 90/180 days❓

As we approach the end of the year there appears to be a tightening upon residency so following on from Pavalijo’s recent experience in Lagos, unless you are going to be in Portugal for 6 months per year, residency may not be an option.
 

webcraft

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Not planning on getting Spanish residency, just wanting some flexibility from the post Brexit 90/180 rule.

The plan was to spend most of the Winter in the Canaries each year, maybe not more than 180 days a year but more than 90 in 180. By going up to Madeira for a few weeks the Winter sun can be extended past the 90 days.

However, if they are going to crack down on temporary residency and insist on 180 days plus a year in country then maybe this is a non-starter. Don't see any down side to giving it a go though.

- W
 

Wansworth

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Reminds me of what it was like 30 years ago,silly excursions across the boarder to Portugal and back every so often,luckily the boarder was only an hour away
 

nortada

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Not planning on getting Spanish residency, just wanting some flexibility from the post Brexit 90/180 rule.

The plan was to spend most of the Winter in the Canaries each year, maybe not more than 180 days a year but more than 90 in 180. By going up to Madeira for a few weeks the Winter sun can be extended past the 90 days.

However, if they are going to crack down on temporary residency and insist on 180 days plus a year in country then maybe this is a non-starter. Don't see any down side to giving it a go though.

- W

Sorry to appear thick but don’t quite see where the flexibility from the Schengen 90/180 rule, to spend most of the winter in the Canaries, comes from❓

If you don’t have residency, how do you propose to spend in excess of 90 days in 180 days in The Canaries❓

Even if you have Portuguese residency, you would still not be able to spend more than 90 days in 180 in Spain. Yes, you could ‘hide’ in Madeira. Unfortunately, the weather factor in Madeira, in winter is not all that wonderful.

Mind you, rather than Madeira, Agadir could provide you with a useful bolt hole.

Reasonable marina, reasonable town, reasonable weather and outside the EU. It also has a good air service to the UK. Spent a month there once and was well impressed, with Casablanca, Marrakech and other interesting places relatively near by.

What are your thought for the summer months, back to the UK❓

Whatever, best of luck with the engine and the quest for residency??
 
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