Passive radar reflector - anything better than Echomax?

[JumbleDuck]

I have my mast down for re-rigging. It currently has an Echomax cylindrical reflector, which is bulky, scruffy and prone to catching halyards. Given that (a) I have to have a passive reflector (b) all passive reflectors are a bit duff and (c) I have neither time nor money to find an active system this year, are there any modern reflectors which are as effective as the Echomax but significantly smaller?

 

[Gwylan]

Like horseshoes. You just have to believe in them.
Yes, we had one. Did we know if it worked or if an empty biscuit tin would do as well?
No.

 

[Refueler]

Having had my boat on ships radar at over 10nm without any reflector ... Baltic with F4 and moderate waves ... the container vessel passed the info to me ... I have to consider the effectiveness of mast / sails vs reflector !

I now have one of those plastic tubes with multi face foil triangles inside hanging from one cross tree. Any good ?? Have no clue at all.

 

[Gary Fox]

In your situation, and bearing in mind that all small, passive reflectors are almost useless:
Use one of the 2" diameter plastic tube types, or a small rain catcher which could be free if you make it yourself.
Save up for an RTE

 

[Refueler]

In your situation, and bearing in mind that all small, passive reflectors are almost useless:
Use one of the 2" diameter plastic tube types, or a small rain catcher which could be free if you make it yourself.
Save up for an RTE

I hoisted the Rain Catcher after that Container vessel incident - but never liked it as genny swept across it on every tack. Changed to the tube type based on the sq area of foil quoted as same as my Rain Catcher.

 

[RAI]

Someone needs to find that QinetiQ report again.

 

[Refueler]

Someone needs to find that QinetiQ report again.

You think that was a definitive report ? It was written to aid an investigation that it and the investigation still never concluded 100%. Both reports ended up as circumstantial and inconclusive.

 

[RAI]

You think that was a definitive report ? It was written to aid an investigation that it and the investigation still never concluded 100%. Both reports ended up as circumstantial and inconclusive.

Please reference a better one. One that supports your preferences, for example.

 

[sarabande]

"The 4” Tube reflector performed very poorly especially beyond 1˚ and is well behind the others in performance having an average RCS of approximately 0.1m2 at 5˚ and 10˚. "

Section 4.1 of the Quinetiq report on radar reflectors. The tube reflector was magnitudes below the others in performance. One would be better off hoisting a plastic shopping bag full of scrumbled tin foil.

Radar_reflectors_report.pdf (publishing.service.gov.uk)

 

[Refueler]

Please reference a better one. One that supports your preferences, for example.

??

Preferences ??

So you have not actually read the reports then ... or you have inserted your own interpretation ?

I had to read them fully detail by detail as I own a Marine Superintendent Company that covers not only what you'll see online at the website - but also other that provides confidential services to Shipping Co's and associated industry.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... Echomax cylindrical reflector, which is bulky, scruffy and prone to catching halyards. ...

I am in the same boat and have decided that currently it is not needed and can remain in the locker as I am unlikely to be in a position in the near term that my reflector will be put to use. I am delaying fitting an active system until my plans to sail further afield will be realised.

 

[Daydream believer]

I am quite happy that my 2-- 4 inch tube reflectors mounted on the inward angled mid shrouds work very well. I know because an RNLI life boat had to find me in a big confused sea in F7 one night & the coxswain came to see me after. He commented what an excellent radar return my 2 reflectors gave him. So that disproves the accuracy of tests, as far as I am concerned. Especially as the skipper said that his radar set was very old & soon due for renewal.

 

[Momac]

I imagine the aluminium mast of a yacht would be a better radar reflector than any passive tin can thing.

 

[Refueler]

I imagine the aluminium mast of a yacht would be a better radar reflector than any passive tin can thing.

The problem there is reflected angle ... the reflectors have multi facets to try and solve the angle factor.

But having been told by a small feeder container ship that I was a clear blip on his radar at over 10nm in moderate seas .. I'm only a 25ft motor sailer ... and his radar was an ACAS - which usually the guys on bridge are lazy and switch to auto clutter - auto often 'cleans out' weak targets as if they are clutter. I am of opinion that reflector is an addition to a boat that can be seen anyway ... does not mean I will go without reflector though.

 

[johnalison]

I imagine the aluminium mast of a yacht would be a better radar reflector than any passive tin can thing.

I doubt that very much. A mast looks a lot like a stealth fighter to me. It crossed my mind once that alloy masts should be made with a reflective texture but I imagine that the wavelengths involved would make this unworkable.

We have a SeaMe reflector and I got a tube reflector as back-up. I once sent my wife off in the dinghy holding this to check it on my radar but didn’t come to any conclusions. I think the outboard may have given a better signal.

 

[Poignard]

""

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c7053ed915d4c10000083/OuzoReport.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c705540f0b6024400008d/Radar_reflectors_report.pdf

 

[Refueler]

I doubt that very much. A mast looks a lot like a stealth fighter to me. It crossed my mind once that alloy masts should be made with a reflective texture but I imagine that the wavelengths involved would make this unworkable.

We have a SeaMe reflector and I got a tube reflector as back-up. I once sent my wife off in the dinghy holding this to check it on my radar but didn’t come to any conclusions. I think the outboard may have given a better signal.

Sorry but how do you consider a mast to stealth ? It is not radar absorbent material .. its highly reflective alloy .. the only factor to consider is its angle of presentation ... being basically rounded - it will always have a small face to the radar Tx .

 

[sarabande]

The orientation of a metal mast has to be at 90 deg to the incoming signal in order to return it adequately. The mast is after all a smooth flat surface relative to the wavelength (usually X or S band) of marine radar. If the boat is heeling, and pitching, the return is severely attenuated as the return will head up towards the sky. I have yet to come across a mast that stays in perfect straight alignment while sailing. It is entirely possible that junctions of e.g. spreaders or the boom might fortuitously make a decent return, but such junctions do not have the engineered "perfect" right angles necessary to bounce the signal back strongly. It's not only a 90deg corner that is needed but panels big enough to send a beefy and worthwhile signal back to the transmitter's vessel.

This is why the tube reflectors are such useless items; they cannot present a big enough reflecting surface especially when tilted. A Qinetiq notes, the returns are very poor.

 

[Refueler]

"View attachment 117125"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c7053ed915d4c10000083/OuzoReport.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c705540f0b6024400008d/Radar_reflectors_report.pdf

Oh Dear - I don't think peeps want this all dragged up again ... the threads back then were bad enough with all the barrack room lawyers and 'experts'.

But to use your own links : Read Section 2 of the Ouzo report .. specifically Section 2.2 and the last paragraph ...

"Quote" Bearing the above in mind, it was concluded that Ouzo was almost certainly catastrophically affected by a collision or near collision with a large vessel. "unquote"

There are even more parts of the report where it is clear that MAIB could not prove or categorically state without doubt PoB hit Ouzo. The radar report was a Laboratory study that basically all in the shipping industry regarded as padding out the report - to give another angle to look at. But it also itself was not proven and added to the most likely scenario.

Don't misunderstand me - I am absolutely gutted about the loss of Ouzo and the three guys. I can also reasonably accept that PoB probably did cause the sinking of Ouzo, but in all fairness will never accept it as gospel.

I know some here will be upset by this post - that's understandable as its a Yachting Forum and whether agreed or not - will carry bias to that side of the equation. I don't think we will ever know the real truth.

Lets get back to OP's bit whether he wants another reflector ....

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... The radar report was a Laboratory study ... Lets get back to OP's bit whether he wants another reflector ....

Ta dah!