Panope Rocna video

[Neeves]

Many of you own a Rocna, or a Supreme, this video might be worth a look.

Apologies but its almost 30 minutes long

Videos of Anchors Setting - Page 37 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

You need to go to Post no 544

Jonathan

 

[FlyingGoose]

An interesting video but in my experience with my Rocna it has never failed to set on first attempt, in all substrates apart from coral, has been tested up to 50 knots gusts and high swell,
I can only go with what I experienced .
And Im no expert in the anchoring , I just do it right.

 

[cherod]

watched that earlier

 

[Neeves]

I'm biased, I made my position clear nearly 8 years ago

Anchor Resetting Tests - Practical Sailor

Because of the conclusion I reached I would not use specific anchors as I believe there are other anchors, that also involve compromises, that on balance are better.

AAC or Morgan's Cloud came to the same conclusions, based on reports from users and accidents, some of which were in the Med.

In good, non cloying seabeds the issues 'melt' away.

Jonathan

 

[doug748]

Just to make it a bit easier:

Trouble brewing eh.

I think he's the best when it comes to anchor wrangling.

.

 

[Robih]

I'm biased, I made my position clear nearly 8 years ago

Anchor Resetting Tests - Practical Sailor

Because of the conclusion I reached I would not use specific anchors as I believe there are other anchors, that also involve compromises, that on balance are better.

AAC or Morgan's Cloud came to the same conclusions, based on reports from users and accidents, some of which were in the Med.

In good, non cloying seabeds the issues 'melt' away.

Jonathan

Jonathan,

I’ve briefly read that article but could see no explicit recommendation, so you say you’re biased but biased to what?

rob

 

[Izi Kalvo]

Holes in the center of the fluke are definitely helping to avoid unwanted mud from piling up on the shank fluke connection area (crown?), changing the balance of the anchor creating a real problem while resetting.

 

[Chae_73]

Jonathan,

I’ve briefly read that article but could see no explicit recommendation, so you say you’re biased but biased to what?

rob

Spade gets a little star, couple of others get ticks.

I'm leaning towards a Spade to replace the aged CQR our boat came with - just need to work out if it will sit nicely / securely on the bow roller as we have no anchor locker.

 

[ctva]

Jonathan,

I’ve briefly read that article but could see no explicit recommendation, so you say you’re biased but biased to what?

rob

I seem to recall that it is ABR.

I have a Rocna, I like it and trust it. I would say the same about my previous Kobra 2 which never failed me.

I do think there are some vested interests or grudges that come to the fore in anchor 'tests' and threads.

?

 

[Robih]

Holes in the center of the fluke are definitely helping to avoid unwanted mud from piling up on the shank fluke connection area (crown?), changing the balance of the anchor creating a real problem while resetting.

Surely the holes are releasing the vacuum effect of mud wedged in to the vee between shank and plate? Thereby allowing the mud to flow through the rear of the anchor? I can see that the upturned edge at the rear of the Rocna will cause mud to jamb then constipate the anchor.

 

[ctva]

... constipate the anchor.

Love that comment.

 

[cherod]

One fir the imagination ?

 

[Robih]

Love that comment.

I like to be descriptive where I can be!

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan,

I’ve briefly read that article but could see no explicit recommendation, so you say you’re biased but biased to what?

rob

A comment made in the article was that the concave anchors with roll bars did not reset until such times as their fluke was washed out by the action of them dragging over the seabed and allowing the sea to 'wash them out'. You surely still do not need a recommendation over whether to invest in a convex or concave/roll bar design?

Of those of you who have Rocna or Supreme - how many times when you retrieve does the fluke come up full of mud demanding some effort to clean it off? I have heard some owners say this is indicative that the anchor was well set. Has it never occurred that if you enjoy a sudden and strong wind shift through 180 degrees, a thunderstorm, or large front, what might happen if your clogged anchor is tripped? Your anchor was designed with specific characteristics - which did not include a huge clot of seabed in the fluke.

There is no best design, this was one series of tests in one specific, but not uncommon, seabed. Spade is slightly concave but the issue was not a major problem.

Kobra, convex, is an excellent product - but I question its wimpy shank - but accept that reports of shanks bending are not significant (at all). Excel is an excellent product and might be coming to a chandler near you, if you are based in the UK. Viking looks to be an excellent product that through application of high tensile steels allows a considerable weight saving but maintain hold characteristics (in the same way the aluminium Fortress has the hold of a steel anchor of a similar physical size but the Fortress weighs about half the weight) Not forgetting Lewmar';s Epsilon.

Since the article was published new anchors have been developed and both Knox and Viking offer a concave design with roll bar and perforations. You will note that at the end of the video positive mention was made of a perforated fluke and how the Supreme had been perforated to good effect. My tests on Viking, perforated fluke, concave, roll bar, show that it does not collect mud, in the exact same seabed where Rocna and an unperforated Supreme DID collect mud. In a different thread it was mentioned of the Knox that the split fluke was required to allow seabed to wash through before it compacted into a clod.

So --- there are no hard and fast rules - but convex anchors (Kobra/Excel) do not suffer from the issue (note the convex 'centre' to the Epsilon). A perforated fluke seems to minimise clogging, Viking and Knox - even though both have roll bars - though I'm not sure why the perforations reduce this problem - it does not matter, why, it works.

So some convex anchors (Kobra/Excel) do not suffer as both the Supreme and Rocna suffer, perforated flukes appear to offer a remedy for a concave fluke design, (Viking, Knox).

ctva is correct - I have an entrenched position. I have tested and seen what happens. I appreciate that many think my conclusions are not relevant to them - but I take some comfort that Morgans Cloud say the same thing and the Panope video repeats the same conclusion. I am happy to accept people will think I am biased (my bias is based on the data) - are they going to level the same criticism at Morgans Cloud and Panope who arrived at the same conclusion based on totally different tests and analysis AND we certainly did not confer together. It merits note - Margan's Clouyd analysis was based on reports, from owners, they received of anchors dragging - resulting in some yachts ending up on beaches - so real life.

One vested interest is that many who have invested in a Rocna, at some considerable expense, will not want to hear anything negative said of their anchor - so another vested interest that ctva can add to his list. Who needs to be told maybe in some circumstances they - have a lemon.

Anchors are a compromise, wake up to the simple fact, carry more than one anchor, preferably of different designs and make sure you have spares that can act as your primary.

Simply be cognisant that your anchor might be perfect in your usual seabeds but has a weakness is some other seabeds - don't be complacent

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Having considered what I posted, above, I went to our good friend Google and simple searched for relevant data so as to offer a more complete picture from the 3 main sources, 2 of which are provided above on this thread.

Morgans Cloud or AAC is a subscription website, and I am not a subscriber. Many people do subscribe which suggests they find the advise given of real value and without bias. I provide below a very brief summary, from the website, of the comments on Rocna, and Supreme.

Resetting Failures With Rocna and Manson, and Some Thoughts on Vulcan and Mantus

You would unfortunately need to subscribe or know a subscriber who could copy the complete review for you. However if you take the website at face vale as a credible source and consider the numbers here who subscribe then the statements made do not need further detail or qualification.

Suggesting that your Rocna is different is questionable. The idea that this cannot happen to you is based on no logic at all. You might be lucky and only anchor in nice clean sand and then I would believe your Rocna is perfectly safe - if you venture 'off piste' be aware.

Jonathan

For those of you in the market for a new anchor - Go to the Morgans Cloud/AAC website and they make an offer of free access to some of one of their books, + other freebies. If you look at the access to the free chapters of the book (you don't get their detail on Rocna) but you do get their review of Spade.

At the end of the Spade article you will also find some links and there is one pertinent to those who champion Mantus as they provide a link to an article in Practical Sailor on 'anchor fluke angles' - yes I'm biased


And yes I do think Spade an excellent product, we carry the aluminium version.

 

[Robih]

Jonathan,

Thank you for both replies above. I have no interest in aggressive discussion of bias, your opinion is what matters. I have been a long term Rocna user and can report that it has not failed us once though we regularly use scope of 4:1 and above. The video commentary suggested that as such scope there were fewer/no issues. We sail in Scotland - we always have lots of space.

However we have a new to us boat with a shiny 30kg Bruce on the bows. I intend that this anchor be moved to spare bower role and replaced with a new gen anchor. I am not closed minded, if the latest intel suggests there are better products than Rocna then I am interested. Technology moves on and we should move with it.......

 

[doug748]

He had similar but slightly less critical observations 4 years ago:

For prospective buyers, the anchors which came through all the tests unscathed (looking in terms of performance not construction, availabilty or cost) were:

Mantus
Super Sarca
Sarca Excel
Spade

.

 

[Neeves]

Robih

I don't think there have been many Rocna 'failures' but those, or some of them, have been expensive. The weakness is well documented and researched - other anchors do not have 'this' weakness - but will have other faults. If you plan 'round' the weakness, don't anchor in cloying bottoms, then there would not be an issue. Recall the problem is in cloying and/or compacting seabeds and if you anchor in sand - there is simply no issue. The Panope vids are in specific bottoms, with lots of weed, my tests were specifically chosen to be held in cloying bottoms - and Morgan's Cloud caters for those who go off piste. If, for example, you anchored down Australia's east coast your could sail 2,000nm and never need to anchor in mud, nor weed.

Winter is drawing in, for you - and unless you intend spending the winter in Skye I'd delay replacing the Bruce until the spring - by which time we all might have had time to see review of the Epsilon. If you are spending Xmas, maybe better Hogmany, in the Western Islands I'd look at Spade. You suggest you have a nice, big and 'shiny' Bruce - if its a reasonable copy (or better an original - did they make originally in stainless? then being shiny (which I assume means stainless) it should be superior to the cast original. Shiny smooth anchors work better than galvanised anchors, especially cast galvanised anchors. There are other developments in anchor distribution which will be confirmed (or not) over the winter - I'd be patient.

Unless you have one and simply omitted to mention it - I'd always carry a Fortress (or maybe the Lewmar LFX), they are so much easier to deploy from a dinghy, in sand are unbeatable, pack flat (or flattish) and obviously are not very heavy..

I note Doug's comment, previous post and I would not touch a Mantus but note he Steve/Panope suggested that Viking was a better buy (but I don't recall which video - and I'm on the water and don't have the bandwidth nor patience to search until I get back to shore. I also do not believe the Super SARCA a sensible choice for a yacht, the SARCA Excel is, much better, I don't like the Super SARCA because of the tripping slot - it works well if you are fisherman but if you use the slot and there is a change of tide or wind - the anchor will trip, whereas other anchors might slowly swivel with the tide. We use both the Excel and Spade + Fortress (all in aluminium versions).

Jonathan

 

[Robih]

Jonathan,

Thanks for that, looks like sage advice.

Yes we have a genuine 30kg Stainless Steel Bruce; OEM on a Malo 43 yacht. We carry a Fortress FX23 (I think its a 23) which is from our previous boat (Nauticat 39) so might be a little under spec'd for the Malo - it'll have to do!

You might remember from about ten years ago that I did the swap out of 10mm grade 30 for 8mm grade 70 to extend chain length but reduce weight. I plan to do the same on the Malo. We occasionally anchor in 20m of water so need 80m in the chain locker as a minimum. Just researching which is the best lump to go on the end of the chain now....

We are sailing out west this winter but not far west - close to a bolt hole at all times!

Rob

 

[Robih]

He had similar but slightly less critical observations 4 years ago:


Mantus
Super Sarca
Sarca Excel
Spade

.

Doug, thanks for this steer, shame the Sarca anchors seem not to be available in the UK, consequently out of that list I'm only left with the Spade that would fit my boat.