Notice of residence application received today.

[BurnitBlue]

I have written this out below. Cannot scan as ref numbers and addresses would need to be blanked out.

Certificate of application for residence status.
You have submitted an application for residence status. With this certificate, you have the right to stay in Sweden until a final decision on your application has been made.

While you are waiting for a decision, you have the same rights as a citizen in the EU and can travel into EU and continue to live, work and study in Sweden. If you are going to travel, you may need to present this certificate at border checks, along with a passport or UK national identity card.

That's it folk. Note there is no time restriction on the validity of this certificate. I expect a decision will take some months as there are thousands of UK citizens in Sweden. Citizen ship application takes three years on average. It will not take that long but the longer the better because I think as a citizen of the EU as stated above I have FoM until a decision is made. No doubt the above may apply to those with Portuguese residence.

 

[179580]

See my recent enquiry as to the D7 retirement visa where I got severely ripped up on this subject. However, free movement within the EU does not seem all it is made out. 38/2004/EU requires registration of domicility after a period of 3 months. wonder how many of over wintering yachtsmen have done this and therefore are illegal immigrants?

 

[syvictoria]

See my recent enquiry as to the D7 retirement visa where I got severely ripped up on this subject. However, free movement within the EU does not seem all it is made out. 38/2004/EU requires registration of domicility after a period of 3 months. wonder how many of over wintering yachtsmen have done this and therefore are illegal immigrants?

Article 7(1) of the Free Movement Directive grants EU citizens a right of residence beyond three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State.
If the EU citizen fulfills the above conditions, non-EU family members who accompany or join the EU citizen in a host Member State derive a right of residence under EU free movement law without any limitation to 90 days in a 180-day period.

Edit: To add that the above is not my text but from a response I received from Europe Direct.

 

[nortada]

I have written this out below. Cannot scan as ref numbers and addresses would need to be blanked out.

Certificate of application for residence status.
You have submitted an application for residence status. With this certificate, you have the right to stay in Sweden until a final decision on your application has been made.

While you are waiting for a decision, you have the same rights as a citizen in the EU and can travel into EU and continue to live, work and study in Sweden. If you are going to travel, you may need to present this certificate at border checks, along with a passport or UK national identity card.

That's it folk. Note there is no time restriction on the validity of this certificate. I expect a decision will take some months as there are thousands of UK citizens in Sweden. Citizen ship application takes three years on average. It will not take that long but the longer the better because I think as a citizen of the EU as stated above I have FoM until a decision is made. No doubt the above may apply to those with Portuguese residence.

Interesting.

Certificate of application for residence status.

When non-EU nationals apply for residency, the local Camara or SEF checks their documentation and then sent them an e-Mail advising that they would be invited for an interview sometime in the future but in the meantime, this email confirmed they had applied and therefore, they were permitted to remain in Portugal until called forward for interview.

All well and good but said interview could be a long time coming. I know of some US visitors who spent years in Portugal and then returned Stateside but the invite to interview never materialised. As to their actual status, it seemed sensible not to enquire.

There was a further wrinkle, they used to go to Gib every so often to satisfy the tax status of their boat.

This seems a rather similar situation, albeit in Sweden.

Once again the juxtaposition of citizenship and residency could lead to confusion.

They speak of your rights to travel in the EU but would you be subject to 90/180? You appear to have full residents in Sweden TFN.

The certificate they have given you, does it have code to be scanned when crossing in out of the Schengen Zone?

Another observation is this correspondence pre or post 1/1/2021?

Those of us with Portuguese Residency had our situation explained when we got it but it has now been amplified in a series of videos from the British Embassy in Lisboa.

Six Videos From The British Embassy On Residency, Health Cover, Driving Licenses + Advice From The British Ambassador

that clearly explain Brits with Portuguese residency post Brexit. As the EU is involved, much could be similar in Sweden.

Only thing in Portugal the rules are decided by the official you are dealing with so it pays to have a Plan B if it all starts to go cruck.

 

[nortada]

Article 7(1) of the Free Movement Directive grants EU citizens a right of residence beyond three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State.
If the EU citizen fulfills the above conditions, non-EU family members who accompany or join the EU citizen in a host Member State derive a right of residence under EU free movement law without any limitation to 90 days in a 180-day period.

Edit: To add that the above is not my text but from a response I received from Europe Direct.

We appeared to have over-lapped. Once again the juxtaposition of citizenship and residency seems to cause confusion.

Before 1/1/21 all Brits were Citizens of the EU. Don’t know if they had EU Citizenship, if such a beast exists.

After 1/1/21 a few Brits had citizenship in a specific host EU state; some more Brits had residency in a specific host state but the majority of Brits were just visitors with rights under the WA so they could still visit the EU, without a visa for 90 days in 180.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I have a US friend with residency in Germany - "Aufenthaltserlaubnis".

She definitely has to present her residency card and US passport at manned borders and was chewed out by an official on the Slovenia/Croatia border when she handed over her passport without her residency permit - he seemed extremely agitated and I wondered for a second if we were going to be allowed over the border - we were.

She is subject to 90/180 in all other Schengen countries other than Germany.

Residency (either temporary or permanent) entitles you to residency in the country that issued it, but as a 3rd country national you will still be subject to the 90/180 rules in other EU states.

Citizenship on the other hand, makes you a citizen of an EU country and then you have full EU FoM rights, subject to the rules mentioned above by syvictoria - 90/180 is no longer applicable and you can bring your non-EU spouse (if you have one) to join you under a family reunification visa, in any of the EU schengen countries - this is a right, but you still need to apply in the country where you take up residence.

Be careful about the wording, residence does not get you past the 90/180 rules in other Schengen states, citizenship of an EU member country does.

PS: @BurnitBlue - I really hope you manage to get your EU FoM back - my fingers are crossed. ?

 

[Graham376]

See my recent enquiry as to the D7 retirement visa where I got severely ripped up on this subject. However, free movement within the EU does not seem all it is made out. 38/2004/EU requires registration of domicility after a period of 3 months. wonder how many of over wintering yachtsmen have done this and therefore are illegal immigrants?

In the past, most UK cruisers just didn't bother registering their presence in any EU country. Because of Covid, most government departments in Portugal are closed for interviews so, as long as an on-line application was made for residence before the 31/12, applicants are safe and not counted as illegal residents, however long it takes before residence granted or refused. No doubt there will still be others intentionally flying under the radar and some who find they can't sail home because of lock down in various countries.

 

[25931]

I have a US friend with residency in Germany - "Aufenthaltserlaubnis".

She definitely has to present her residency card and US passport at manned borders and was chewed out by an official on the Slovenia/Croatia border when she handed over her passport without her residency permit - he seemed extremely agitated and I wondered for a second if we were going to be allowed over the border - we were.

She is subject to 90/180 in all other Schengen countries other than Germany.

Residency (either temporary or permanent) entitles you to residency in the country that issued it, but as a 3rd country national you will still be subject to the 90/180 rules in other EU states.

Citizenship on the other hand, makes you a citizen of an EU country and then you have full EU FoM rights, subject to the rules mentioned above by syvictoria - 90/180 is no longer applicable and you can bring your non-EU spouse (if you have one) to join you under a family reunification visa, in any of the EU schengen countries - this is a right, but you still need to apply in the country where you take up residence . Be careful about the wording, residence does not get you past the 90/180 rules in other Schengen states, citizenship of an EU member country does.

PS: @BurnitBlue - I really hope you manage to get your EU FoM back - my fingers are crossed. ?

Some people are confused by the terminology - citizenship and nationality are synonymous and not to be confused with residence. Ihave dual nationality and tomorrow I shall vote in the Portuguese presidential elections, which a resident can not do. My status is permanent whereas residency is for five years initially followed by another five and then permanent.
I can travel freely in the Schengen area on my ID card.

 

[nortada]

Some people are confused by the terminology - citizenship and nationality are synonymous and not to be confused with residence. Ihave dual nationality and tomorrow I shall vote in the Portuguese presidential elections, which a resident can not do. My status is permanent whereas residency is for five years initially followed by another five and then permanent.
I can travel freely in the Schengen area on my ID card.

So if you have dual nationality, you have dual citizenship and on the strength of your Portuguese citizenship total FoM?

If you are a Portuguese Citizen are you still in the S1 scheme?

That explains a lot of your previous observations

 

[nortada]

See my recent enquiry as to the D7 retirement visa where I got severely ripped up on this subject. However, free movement within the EU does not seem all it is made out. 38/2004/EU requires registration of domicility after a period of 3 months. wonder how many of over wintering yachtsmen have done this and therefore are illegal immigrants?

Haven't heard it called registration of domicility before but the requirement to register if you are in country is well known and until now, in Portugal, usually ignored (by both sides).

I don't think not registering make you an illegal immigrant, more an over-stayer, but it does make you liable for a fine of up to €1,500.

Hither to 1/1/21 all Brits in the EU were citizens but now in most cases they are residents or visitors and the visitors should leave by 31/3/21. Will they, who knows but I doubt it.

Will anything be done about it, well, not until they try to leave and even then where Portugal is concerned, I have my doubts.

They may even claim that the covid lock down has prevented their timely departure, who knows.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I would say the bets are off on what happens to people who didn't register or have no official residency paperwork - they have no official right to be in the country they are in - how that then pans out regards punishment, deportation, fines, banning from the Schengen area or taking a more lenient view will be on an individual case-by-case basis as with the punishment for all crimes.

Consequences of overstaying in Schengen Zone
Despite that there is not a common policy for all Schengen Member States on the overstaying penalties, each of the states applies different types of penalties.

Therefore, the consequences of overstaying in Schengen territory, whether your visa or the permitted 90 days for nationals of the countries under the visa-waiver program, depend a lot on the number of days you have overstayed, and the country you get caught in. Germany is known to have the strictest immigration laws in the EU in this direction; while Greece is known for applying very high fines to those caught overstaying.

In general, all of the member states apply one of the following types of penalties for overstaying a Schengen visa or a permitted stay.

Deportation
When you get caught staying illegally in Europe, you will totally be deported to you home country. The deportation procedures depend on your case and the country where you are caught. You may be deported immediately, within just a few hours or after a few days. On the other hand, if you get caught engaging in paid activity while overstaying your visa, or engaging in illegal activities, you will most possibly be taken into custody where you will wait for your trial. If you are found guilty then you will be held in prison or fined with a high amount of money. Upon completing the punishment, you will then be deported to you home country and banned from entering the Schengen for a specific amount of time.

Deportation is always followed by another consequence. Usually you will know about it before being deported, since you will receive the decision on you case. If you have just overstayed a few days, and you are lucky to be caught in one of the countries that go easy on overstayers, you may leave without another penalty.

Difficulties coming back to Schengen
Even if you get back to your home country without any fine or ban, you should know that your overstaying will cause you problems the next time you attempt to enter the Schengen Zone. Immigration officers and border guards tend to be suspicious on people who overstay once, no matter in which country they were caught overstaying. Therefore, you will encounter difficulties on getting a Schengen visa or crossing the EU external borders.

Fine
This is the most often penalty for overstaying a visa. Depending on the member state, the fees are applied differently. However, if you are caught after you have illegally remained in the Schengen for a longer time, aside of a fine being applied to you, you will also be banned from entering the Schengen Area for an appointed period of time, or even forever.

Ban
Banning people from entering the Schengen is usually applied to those overstaying and working or engaging in other illegal activities. A person can be banned for a period of three years and more from entering any of the member states of the Schengen area.

No consequences
There are also cases when people do not bear any consequence for overstaying their visa. If you are a child, or a person that cannot travel without a caretaker because of an illness or disability, then most possibly you will not face any consequences for overstaying.

On the other hand, if you face an accident or unforeseen illness, or you are in a situation that does not permit you to travel to your home country, then you are strongly advised to apply for a Schengen visa extension instead of overstaying.

What are the consequences of overstaying in Schengen Area? - SchengenVisaInfo.com

 

[25931]

So if you have dual nationality, you have dual citizenship and on the strength of your Portuguese citizenship total FoM?

If you are a Portuguese Citizen are you still in the S1 scheme?

That explains a lot of your previous observations

I do have FoM. Perhaps a bit careless but I've never bothered with S1

 

[25931]

Haven't heard it called registration of domicility before but the requirement to register if you are in country is well known and until now and in Portugal, usually ignored (by both sides).

I don't think not registering make you an illegal immigrant, more an over-stayer, but it does make you liable for a fine of up to €1,500.

Hither to 1/1/21 all Brits in the EU were citizens but now in most cases they are residents or visitors and the visitors should leave by 31/3/21. Will they, who knows but I doubt it.

Will anything be done about it, well, not until they try to leave and even then where Portugal is concerned, I have my doubts.

They may even claim that the covid lock down has prevented their timely departure, who knows.

The idea that residents were European citizens or even Portuguese citizens is not quite right, for example it does not give the right to vote in anything other than local govt. elections. As a general rule citizens can not be expelled but residents can

 

[Graham376]

The idea that residents were European citizens or even Portuguese citizens is not quite right, for example it does not give the right to vote in anything other than local govt. elections. As a general rule citizens can not be expelled but residents can

I think some people are confused because residence documents issued before 31/12 state that we're citizens of the European Union. This status will be removed when new biometric cards are issued. My permanent residence no longer allows me to vote in local elections and never gave me any citizen rights.

 

[25931]

I think some people are confused because residence documents issued before 31/12 state that we're citizens of the European Union. This status will be removed when new biometric cards are issued. My permanent residence no longer allows me to vote in local elections and never gave me any citizen rights.

Problem when documents are created by people who do not have a sufficient command of language/law/history. Rome was a city not a nation so Saul/Paul could say "Civis Romanus sum" (I am a Roman citizen) and as such had the right to be tried in Rome. The situation today is not analogous and the EU is neither a city nor a nation, in fact it's more like a club and it might be more accurate to say "I'm a member" ( for those who still are).
There are those who want to turn the EU into a "United States of Europe" in which case it could be claimed to be a nation and grant nationality (citizenship if you wish ) but I shall not live to see such a dream come true and looking at the unholy mess which is the (dis) United States of America I have no such desire.

 

[Graham376]

There are those who want to turn the EU into a "United States of Europe" in which case it could be claimed to be a nation and grant nationality (citizenship if you wish ) but I shall not live to see such a dream come true and looking at the unholy mess which is the (dis) United States of America I have no such desire.

That would be more of a nightmare to me, confirmed by a couple of guys from European Commission I had the misfortune to be seated next to a while ago. Their goal is to control all of Europe with national governments sidelined to minor local issues. We're rid of that now but replaced with our own nightmare.

 

[syvictoria]

Glossary of summaries - EUR-Lex

EU CITIZENSHIP
European citizenship was first defined in Articles 9 - 12 of the Treaty on European Union. Articles 18 - 25 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) set down the rights resulting from EU citizenship.
Any national of an EU country is considered to be a citizen of the EU. EU citizenship does not replace national citizenship: it is an addition to it. Citizenship gives them the right to:

• move and take up residence anywhere in the EU;
• vote and stand in local government and European Parliament elections in their country of residence;
• diplomatic and consular protection outside the EU from the authorities of any EU country if their country of nationality is not represented;
• petition the European Parliament and appeal to the European Ombudsman;
• address the European institutions in any of its official languages and to receive a reply in the same language;
• non-discrimination on the basis of nationality, gender, race, religion, handicap, age or sexual orientation;
• invite the Commission to submit a legislative proposal (citizens' initiative);
• access EU institutions' and bodies' documents, subject to certain conditions (Article 15 of the TFEU).

 

[Alicatt]

The Brexit and the Belgian Brits had a zoom meeting last night with a immigration lawyer, Oh boy!

Belgium is issuing a separate ID card for British citizens that are staying in Belgium to differentiate them under the Withdrawal Agreement, it's called the M card. However, as Brits are no longer EU citizens then our new card does not count towards citizenship and the lawyer was advising everyone to delay getting the M card as it has not been adopted by Royal Decree into the list of cards that count towards residency to obtain Belgian citizenship.

The week before Christmas the government here issued a letter to all Brits in Belgium to inform them that they had to come in and exchange their E,E+,F,F+ or Special ID cards for the new M card. Lots of people have done so and been given an Annex 56 and/or an Annex 58 certificate to say that they can stay in Belgium, but it puts them in a less secure situation as the Annex 56 is only a temporary admission document that lasts 3 months.

To compound everything else the M cards are not ready and have not been integrated into the ID systems yet, we do not know how long it's going to take either, and now sitting on a temporary admission of 3 months we are all a bit apprehensive about what is going to happen in 3 months if the cards are still not ready.

My wife applied for me to stay in Belgium under the family reunification route or F card as it is also known, under the advice of the gemeente my wife did not submit her earnings from property rental, but I included mine to show that we had enough income, In Belgium income from property rental does not count towards taxation, so the gemeente said not to include my wife's and so she only put her invalidity pension and it fell short by about €50 per month for it to be enough to let me stay, my income was not counted at all so her application for me was rejected on those grounds. On speaking with the immigration dept. they said they recognise all forms of income and she should have included it.
The guy at the immigration said to resubmit it with the correct info and all should be well, but the person the gemeente spoke with said no and now I have to go down the M card route, All has been resubmitted with lots of extra info required.

 

[Alicatt]

The Brexit and the Belgian Brits had a zoom meeting last night with a immigration lawyer, Oh boy!

Here is a list of the points taken away from the webinar last night:

In the meantime there are a few very clear takeaways that apply for many people in this group:

1. If you need legal support or have a really specific question for a lawyer about your residency rights or application to become Belgian, then Your Europe Advice offers free legal advice https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/index_en.htm. If you are lucky, you will get
   Anthony Valcke
   as your lawyer.
2. The annexes you receive while waiting for your M Cards are not travel documents. You will not be able to re-enter Belgium with them as a resident.
3. If you want to apply for Belgian nationality this year, you should not apply for an M-Card as it is not valid towards your nationality application. If you have already applied for or made an appointment to apply for one then cancel it, if you want to become Belgian later.
4. If you don't meet the requirements for becoming Belgian this year, and have to make the M Card application, don't give in your E (E+, F, F+) cards until you actually have the M Card handed to you. If the commune asks for you tell them to refer to the Royal Decree, or ask Your Europe Advice/a lawyer to write you a letter to take to the Commune.
5. Finally, M Cards ensure your residency here but not as an EU citizen therefore they are not helpful for future applications for Belgian nationality. We will work with Anthony in the future to lobby to change this, I would like this to be something we can help to change together and I'm sure we will be calling on you for help in due course.