New to EU .. Med. Looking for 22-24m MY. Pros/Cons of Types?

Buccaneer-USA

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They only went bust once in 2012, and reopened in 2019 under American ownership.
Aicon opened in 2001 launched its first model the 56 in 02. Prior to boat building the company was a furniture maker founded in 92, and taking among many contracts for some Azimut Yacht models and Antago Yachts ( a builder more in line to compete with Sanlorenzo then other main stream builders). SL was not really known in those time outside of the Med and East American Coast.
There was about 20 not completed builds after the bust up (most marked 09 or newer) of the various 54, 56 (really only a couple), 58, 64, 62 Open, 72 Open, 75, 85 etc
The 56 was a hot seller (selling over 100 in 6 years production in no small part also thanks to the leasing bubble of the period 02 to 08) and from what I know build quality improved, and the newer the model is the better is the quality. The 52 which was the second model was a not mostly because it costed just about 15% less to the 56 but offered so much less.
The 64 launched in 04 for example while I never helmed one has always received nice accolades from people I know which have owned or helmed or captained one.
Early 56 (02-05) had some issues most where gelcoat which really oxidized fast, and a flexing upper structure.
These issued where rectified after 06 by what I was told.
64 and 62 Open sold also well as did the 85 flagship. 75 was launched in 07 when things started to slow, as was the 80 Open HT, and the 58 (an evolution of the 56). These launched in 08 as things really slowed down.
So, look for an 06-07 56 footer?
 

prinex

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I had a look at a 2002 56 in my marina (which unfortunately was used as a holiday home so nothing was looking mantained at all) which was for sale around 270K Euro.

For that money you can get a Princess/Sunseeker/Fairline or even a Azimut/Ferretti which will be way way easier to sell, selling the Alcon could prove a daunting task. Beside the fact that the flybridge is really small, this is something that in the sq makes the difference.
 

PowerYachtBlog

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Here in the Med, the Aicon especially the 56 are not hard sellers, and not in 2020 or 21 (when everything is selling) but since ever.
Actually sometimes they are easier to sell then other boats bar the Azimut 55. Find me a full beam midships master cabin in a 17 meter at around 300k and you understand why they are not hard to sell.

I can understand supporting the British names by the Brits, but support goes on what a dealer delivers, and that can be very subjective from dealer to dealer.
The British companies has also the habit to never go beyond there dealer.

For an understanding I just needed a CE certificate from a famous British builder this is a 2005 boat, and first the dealer and then the original manufacturer literally shut the door down.
It is interesting that I managed to get CE Conformity certificates from Italian companies which are closed down, since quite a few years, but not by a British company.
Result in this boat is that we have to get a survey to redo the CE conf certificate at a cost of 1500 euros.
 

Hurricane

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Reputation is good for these boats?
Well, I can only speak for myself.
I have owned a Princess 67 (20m Flybridge) for the last 13 years (since new) and I don't have any complaints.
And most years, I "live" on the boat during the whole summer.
She is big enough to do what you are asking.
If the Princess 67 is out of your budget, perhaps have a look at the previous model - the Princess 65.
Or the same vintage (slightly smaller) - the Princess 61.
This guy did - and he loves it.
If you are not British, you may not know the guy - to us he is a well known comedian - a kind of national hero
.
 

Zkaliman

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You don't have to pay those extortionate prices if you stay away from the areas mentioned.
People on here will know that I always say this.
IMO, you have to be a bit out of your mind to pay those prices.
OK - you don't have Spain on your list and you are probably looking for a Med experience rather than a place in the sun to keep your boat.
So you probably wouldn't fit into our strategy.
However, the mooring prices in our part of Spain are SIGNIFICANTLY less than the ones quoted above.
For example, a friend is paying 350 euros per month for a 20m berth (including water and electricity).
That particular deal is a bit extreme but you definitely wouldn't pay much more.
We keep our boat out of those "exclusive" areas - cruising to the more expensive areas for a few weeks at a time.
Our base is mid way between Barcelona and Valencia - making it easy to cross to the Balearic Islands whenever we want.
So, maybe keep the boat in a low cost area and invest in a car as well to touring areas further afield and inland etc.

From a boating perspective based on mainland Spain and cruising to places as required works well for us.
Here's a little video of a pre-Covid cruise from our home base in Sant Carles.
Essentially, beautiful places for a fraction of the costs.


I'm sure you can find places with similar costs.
For example MapisM's home of Carloforte would be about 8000 to 10,000 euros for a 20m annual berth - again probably including electricity and water.
Sorry, I really only know prices for 20m berths.
Thanx for chiming in

“OK - you don't have Spain on your list and you are probably looking for a Med experience rather than a place in the sun to keep your boat.
So you probably wouldn't fit into our strategy”

Because your comment may fit into our strategy - I’m kinda like bucanneer looking to buy a boat and have in the med a few years. I’ve been looking for a big comfortable low hp boat but all I’ve found boats with big hp engines which equate to more feul and costly repair bills - but I like your strategy - nice to hear it. I’m gonna let that settle in my head a bit. I’ve actually been in Europe already for a while hunting for a boat. Still here. Thanx again
 

westernman

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I’ve been looking for a big comfortable low hp boat but all I’ve found boats with big hp engines which equate to more feul and costly repair bills - but I like your strategy - nice to hear it. I’m gonna let that settle in my head a bit. I’ve actually been in Europe already for a while hunting for a boat. Still here. Thanx again
I would be interested to hear what you find.
In the Med I have come across almost exclusively mobos with ridiculously big, thirsty engines which run close to their limits.

Who really needs 3000 hp in a 50ft boat?

And do you realize how much air you need to get in the engine room to stop it catching fire?
 

Bouba

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Thanx for chiming in

“OK - you don't have Spain on your list and you are probably looking for a Med experience rather than a place in the sun to keep your boat.
So you probably wouldn't fit into our strategy”

Because your comment may fit into our strategy - I’m kinda like bucanneer looking to buy a boat and have in the med a few years. I’ve been looking for a big comfortable low hp boat but all I’ve found boats with big hp engines which equate to more feul and costly repair bills - but I like your strategy - nice to hear it. I’m gonna let that settle in my head a bit. I’ve actually been in Europe already for a while hunting for a boat. Still here. Thanx again
Yes, Spain is for those British people who want to keep company with other British people while eating British food and alcohol in the sunshine. The real Med experience is the Côte d’Azur in Southern France. It is the most expensive and crowded, but it is what it is and that is the authentic Med experience ?
There maybe some Greek or Italians who may disagree.......?
 

Portofino

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I would be interested to hear what you find.
In the Med I have come across almost exclusively mobos with ridiculously big, thirsty engines which run close to their limits.

Who really needs 3000 hp in a 50ft boat?

And do you realize how much air you need to get in the engine room to stop it catching fire?
More people than you think .Time poor and cash ( read the fuel bill(s) ) rich .


Boils down to how you intend to use your boat .

Last sentence ? Not sure what you mean tbh ?? They tend to have air flaps on the air vents of the engine room .Theses are spring loaded bit like a mouse trap ready to snap shut , you shut off incase of fire .As well as fuel cock closing taps and engine stops by the helm .This is additional to the inert gas canister - to put the fire out .

Aside there are benefits of being to cover 100 miles in 3 hrs :) .Take my word for that one .;)
 

vas

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Yes, Spain is for those British people who want to keep company with other British people while eating British food and alcohol in the sunshine. The real Med experience is the Côte d’Azur in Southern France. It is the most expensive and crowded, but it is what it is and that is the authentic Med experience ?
There maybe some Greek or Italians who may disagree.......?
says the Brit that eats sausage or burger with chips in SOF, get real, doubt you're going to persuade many ppl Bouba :p
Fact is (like it or not) that the eastern you go the cheaper and more quiet it gets ;-)
I'd also say more beautiful, but I'd be biased!
BTW, @Zkaliman having a pair of large engines in your mobo doesn't mean you have to run them hard all the time. Most ppl have seen the light of travelling at 8,9,10kn where consumption is minimal. Bit of planning (wont be a problem if you're travelling around for a couple of years) and a good autopilot is all that's needed ;-)


V.
 

prinex

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Yes but the issue that modern diesel engines can be driven at light loads and nothing bad happens, they are rated for a very large range. You can still do the "italian tune up" on older engines (that is low rpm for a while and then 1 hour of 70% load to "clean" them) but is not really a solution. And 2x1200 HP engines still cost a lot of money to keep healty anyway.

I know of people repowering old boats (with 1200HP gms or so) with smaller new 300PS engines, they forfait the 20kn+ speed but can cruise much more economically (and way more silent) at 10-12kn. Even if it looks like heresy I would consider a old Sanlorenzo 62 with new 350ps engines a better buy than the "all original" old one with the 30 years old GMs.
 

PowerYachtBlog

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I would be interested to hear what you find.
In the Med I have come across almost exclusively mobos with ridiculously big, thirsty engines which run close to their limits.

Who really needs 3000 hp in a 50ft boat?

And do you realize how much air you need to get in the engine room to stop it catching fire?

I think in the Med the more HP you have the better it is. Slow tottering can work in some areas not so well in others. This my opinion and I am not saying what I say is Biblical.
But the more I sell and deliver fast boats the more sense I see them to make.
I think in the Balearics it is needed, so you can go for a weekend hop to Formentera or Ibiza or vice versa.
Same in the SoF, how many times are you can go cruise the islands around St. Tropez. With speed you could do a short trip to Corsica and come back.
Same in the South of Italy.
Where speed is not important is if you are based in Sardinia, Croatia, IMO. For the rest I think it really helps unless you have a lot of time available, but even that is not always perfect.

Anyways some years ago I sold a Pershing 54 to an Italian client who was coming from a 21 meter motor yacht cruising at 22 knots.
The Pershing was with the biggest engine option, 2 x Man 1300hp, and surface drives. Cruise speed of forty knots, tops at fifty plus.
Anyways after the contract he said that he is gonna do Croatia this Summer, leaving North of Rome ie. Cala Galera.
Time of arrival two days, mid July. Then he makes one month pottering Croatia since in the area every marina is like ten nm away from each other.
 

PowerYachtBlog

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Yes but the issue that modern diesel engines can be driven at light loads and nothing bad happens, they are rated for a very large range. You can still do the "italian tune up" on older engines (that is low rpm for a while and then 1 hour of 70% load to "clean" them) but is not really a solution. And 2x1200 HP engines still cost a lot of money to keep healty anyway.

I know of people repowering old boats (with 1200HP gms or so) with smaller new 300PS engines, they forfait the 20kn+ speed but can cruise much more economically (and way more silent) at 10-12kn. Even if it looks like heresy I would consider a old Sanlorenzo 62 with new 350ps engines a better buy than the "all original" old one with the 30 years old GMs.

IMO who ever does this is a criminal.

I can tell you a nice story about repowering. We had a late seventies Posillipo Tobago 47 in Malta, original engines GM435hp.
One time in 1998 the owners decide to repower her with twin Cats 6 cylinder 420hp, 7 litres versus the original 11 litres of the original boat.
From one of the most seaworthy boats in its class she became a shamble to what she was.
With original engines Beaufort Force 5 head-seas with 2 meters waves, the Tobago was a joy to watch and handle.
Not only that consumption stayed more or less the same, and the boat needed more power to cruise.

Note on SL62 never had GMs, they Man 1100hp. Possibly the first couple hulls had Man 820hp.
GM 735hp where fitted to the 57, with optional 820hp being more desired.
 

vas

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PYB, the OP wants to spend a few years cruising the Med. I very much doubt he's interested in quick island hoping!

further I really don't follow all that oldish diesels cannot run at low speeds.
Been doing that for 5yrs now FPT (IVECO) 6.7lt 330bhp turbodiesels, running them at 1200-1400rpm, clocked 400h like that, believe it or not they still work...
Not sure you a two stroke DD would cope with low speeds, but IMHO everything else should be fine.
 

Portofino

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PYB, the OP wants to spend a few years cruising the Med. I very much doubt he's interested in quick island hoping!

further I really don't follow all that oldish diesels cannot run at low speeds.
Been doing that for 5yrs now FPT (IVECO) 6.7lt 330bhp turbodiesels, running them at 1200-1400rpm, clocked 400h like that, believe it or not they still work...
Not sure you a two stroke DD would cope with low speeds, but IMHO everything else should be fine.
It’s wether they still workafter 2000 hrs of this treatment.That’s the Q ?

Lightly loaded gensets fail @ 1/2 the hrs of the fully loaded or even sooner .
Identical motors just a different life .

As regards bigger SL s 58-72 with MANs ………my MANs push my boat 9 knots + @ 50 % load at only 825 rpm .EGTs never exceed 300*C
Tickover first click is 600 rpm 7 knots .

I imagine a pair of 90 s 24 L V12 s would do similar rpms , obviously a higher D speed as the boats longer - guess 10-12 knots before pushing a bow wave .
They are not ( mech injection days ) designed for this .
You can do it , but need to Italian tune up .
But really all an Italian tune up does is clean up the injector tips .The soot has already got in the oil from the over fuelling , the loose rings etc .That valve surface protection has worn off or thin so the valve seal protection has been reduced .


If you do what Prinex proposes stuff a pair of 350 hp in lieu of a pair of 1200 hps in they will be on song full 550-615 * C EGTs tight rings , clean injector tips , hot oil etc .The boat still goes 10-12 knots but the engines will run for ever and use a fraction of fuel in theory .But I suspect they will use more .
This is because thoses MANs sip fuel under 1000 rpm .
Mine ( 1/2 the size of the SL s ) do 15-18 L / hr each side at 9 knots .
So double that - straight cubic capacity maths = 2x 36 L - 70-80 L hr for the boat .

A pair of 350 s say 70-80 L more like 100 EACH so over double to move the boat 10-12 knots .

How ever the services of the V12 * mans might blow away any savings over the 350s in a season .
On top is the initial buy in and install of the 350s .Gonna take years to recover as they will gobble more fuel .
The maths does not work imho

Wether thats “ criminal “ I do not know each to there own .Personally I would not do it . As net costs will be more by a huge factor when all is factored in .

I advocate buy the best fit for usage boat you can find .Only you know your intended usage pattern .There is a boat out there for every occasion.D long distance live aboards to fast week end commuters with everything in between inc floating apartments.

* could easily drop €20k on a big cooler + water pump refurb by a MAN tech .
 
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Zkaliman

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Yes, Spain is for those British people who want to keep company with other British people while eating British food and alcohol in the sunshine. The real Med experience is the Côte d’Azur in Southern France. It is the most expensive and crowded, but it is what it is and that is the authentic Med experience ?
There maybe some Greek or Italians who may disagree.......?
Now now be nice lol
 

Zkaliman

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Yes, Spain is for those British people who want to keep company with other British people while eating British food and alcohol in the sunshine. The real Med experience is the Côte d’Azur in Southern France. It is the most expensive and crowded, but it is what it is and that is the authentic Med experience ?
There maybe some Greek or Italians who may disagree.......?
More people than you think .Time poor and cash ( read the fuel bill(s) ) rich .


Boils down to how you intend to use your boat .

Last sentence ? Not sure what you mean tbh ?? They tend to have air flaps on the air vents of the engine room .Theses are spring loaded bit like a mouse trap ready to snap shut , you shut off incase of fire .As well as fuel cock closing taps and engine stops by the helm .This is additional to the inert gas canister - to put the fire out .

Aside there are benefits of being to cover 100 miles in 3 hrs :) .Take my word for that one .;)
yeah your right there is a lot of money around the med from all over the world - good on them- “Time poor and cash rich” sometimes you really do have to rush over to st Tropez on the boat to get that good spot at that cool place - I forget the name - where everyone shoots each other with champagne !!! it does depend how you use your boat. This is a great forum - reminds me of boatdiesel.com very smart and informative people .
 

Zkaliman

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I would be interested to hear what you find.
In the Med I have come across almost exclusively mobos with ridiculously big, thirsty engines which run close to their limits.

Who really needs 3000 hp in a 50ft boat?

And do you realize how much air you need to get in the engine room to stop it catching fire?
Yes I’ll let u know what I looked at and what I think I finally settled for. In actuality I’ve been LOOKING FOR A REAL GOOD ENGINE THAT HAPPENS TO COME WITH A DECENT BOAT IN THE MED- My strategy is when see a boat I like at the price range I like - before getting enamored with the description - I immediately go to spec sheet - and that’s where my heart goes down a little - mostly too much power or engine models with bad histories - but I remain positive.
 
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