New to EU .. Med. Looking for 22-24m MY. Pros/Cons of Types?

Portofino

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Surely younger means higher rate of depreciation, as well as starting from a higher price.
So a double whammy as regards total value lost in depreciation. :unsure:
Theses “ younger “ plastic fantastic FB boats as well as somewhere on the depreciation curve are also more subjectivity somewhere else on the style + fashion curve as times change .
Where as the older depreciated out classic timeless Italian ( ok ones a Dutch Hessen ) stuff suggested never really lose there aesthetic appeal imho .
They , the U.K. Brit boats also build quality wise are not a patch on the Italian boats .
I mean a sq 58 compared to a Alalunga , Heesen , Moria , San Lorenzo et al .
All the above have real teak , no veneers and the head linings were fit a and forget item at build along with many back room components .

A €200 K 20m Moria ( show. ^^ earlier ) and “ younger “ a sq 58 for double are incomparable quality and durability wise .

The cheaper places tend to be cheap for a reason as do the pricey places .
Crime , misquotes , accessibility ( remember flying in I mentioned) , shore side back up , shore side amenities point jointventurells ^^ made all enter the mix .
They make the difference between heaven + living hell , just existing on a boat in the Med .
 

Portofino

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By way of example I have picked this out as the smaller step down and “ younger “ quality nowt to replace or fix .
Additionally it’s around a 50 so you could exactly retrace the steps in the vids I posted .
The 730 MANs are arguably bomb proof and economic to run as inline 6 s .Speaking from 6 yrs experience there .

it’s got 3 cabins + a crew / utility room .

Built like a brick outhouse .
Ferretti 500 Elite in Rome Boats by £238,224 Used boats - Top Boats
 

Buccaneer-USA

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Absolutely - IMO, it is "beggars belief" that people pay these extreme prices.
In the Med, there are loads of great low cost places.
You don't have to pay those extortionate prices.

On the subject of the boat.
Bouba's point is very real.
You intend only using the boat for 3 years.
So that means that you will have to sell it at the end of that period.
For most of us on here 3 years isn't a long time - we view our boats as lasting longer than that.
So, here's a suggestion.
Why not choose a younger boat that will be more attractive to sell later.
More modern equipment - current(ish) electronics etc.
Maybe set your size requirements down a bit - say a 18m to 20m flybridge boat.
You can still live comfortably on one that size.
As a target, I suggest (say) a Fairline Squadron 58 - there are lots about and several people on this forum own them.
As far as living on board is concerned, a big feature of the Squadron 58 is its laundry room - something that people forget on boats.
I have never owned one but it seems in this case, you could pick one up for 300K/400K and then have something young enough that will sell after 3 years.

Basically, I'm saying that you could lower your expectations and still have a great time in the Med.

*** *** ***

This is EXACTLY the kind of input I’m looking for.
THANK YOU TO ALL.

We lived comfortably aboard our 50 ft Hatteras for a year in SF.
The only missing thing was that second queen/double stateroom.
Well, and hanging locker space. ?

I was thinking *more room is better* for 3 years … and now see that to be less practical and more fanciful.
So, 50-60-65 seems the better idea. (We’ve adult kids and child like friends that will join us periodically on this adventure, so at least one SRm (the second queen) is set aside for guests.)

With that in mind, I beg you all to indulge me again, with the same basic question…. Any particular brands to look at / stay away from?
 

westernman

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We’ve adult kids and child like friends that will join us periodically on this adventure, so at least one SRm (the second queen) is set aside for guests.)
Why not get a boat with a single stateroom for you?
Then guests will sleep on the pull out sofa in the saloon.

In that way, you get all the comfort you need and you can get that in a much smaller boat.
If the guests don't like the sofa, then they can find a hotel.

If you do get a smaller boat with a guest stateroom with bunk beds, consider ripping those out and replacing with hanging lockers!
 

Buccaneer-USA

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Why not get a boat with a single stateroom for you?
Then guests will sleep on the pull out sofa in the saloon.

In that way, you get all the comfort you need and you can get that in a much smaller boat.
If the guests don't like the sofa, then they can find a hotel.

If you do get a smaller boat with a guest stateroom with bunk beds, consider ripping those out and replacing with hanging lockers!

‘Cause we like our friends, and they enjoy a little nookie now and then, in the privacy of a stateroom?
?
 

prinex

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To add to this discussion: I spent years travelling the med on a steel trawler, 16mt long, made in 1965 which i bought for 30.000 Euro. It had a Deutz Engine made in 1960 which required (after 10 years) just new contacts for the starter, basically no care at all, I clocked around 3000 hours on it. Yes I was young... I repainted it once I remember (no "down to the bare steel" thing, wash with hot pressure water, dry, a few bucket of 2-components paint and it was good for another 15 years). The boat was "pirate standard" no fancy thing but worked for years.

I sold it 10 years later for 10.000 Euro to another young guy which wanted to do the same thing - my 2 kids where getting bigger and it was all a bit too cramped.

So basically all is possible, i frequent port cros quite often and I see all possible variants of going cheap, and given the area a lot of 25mt+ 2 crew superyachts. You can rent them for 150K Euro a week ...

The reason berthing is so expensive in the cote d'azur is because is extremely convenient. Nice airport is close by, Paris is 3 hours TGV train, tons of specialized yacht shops around, if you need a part or a repair it goes quick. And you have easy access to Corsica / Sardinia which IMO are just fantastic for boating. And in winter Port Napoleon (I used the dry dock there a few years) will keep your boat safe out of the water for a reasonable fee.

So the 8/9K Euro more that you pay for a let's say sq58, or San Lorenzo 57 or similar compared to Spain / South Italy do have a base - Of course if you don't have to move for work etc and have tons of time Spain will be the better choice. I work so Im happy that I can spend some days on the boat, hop in the car at 8 pm and be in Switzerland at midnight which would be impossible in Spain or South Italy. But this is just my case.

So to your choice of boat: go smaller (anything flybridge over 50 foot has 3 cabins), do 9 months dry dock at port napoleon (5K Euro) and when you cruise just do anchor 3-4 days at a stretch then go in a marina for 1-2 days (you will pay from 60 to 200 Euro a day depending where) - this is what I did for years but just because I did not had a washing machine on the yacht. And when season is over boat gets plastic wrapped and no issues until the next year. Make sure the boat is silent at anchor (that is no slapping sounds), that you have a real shower (box), and a real kitchen, and can carry a large tender (4.5 mt at least).

My boat of choice (but Im a traditional guy) would be a older Sanlorenzo 57 , the ferretti have the chicken ladder to the flybridge and no real shower. Budget 100-120K Euro. Or a sq50something (the one with the laundry room) if you want to spend a bit more (250/300K Euro) and have a "modern" boat but be prepared to lose some money on the sale, or a older Sanlorenzo 62 - the boat I like most personally.
 

prinex

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Well the local shipyard sold one for 80K (with MAN engines of all things), this was a customer that had the boat taken out 3 years ago for dry dock and never paid the yard. They offered it to me 1 year ago and I decided (and I was probably wrong) to stick with my Abbate Primatist G41 - ease of use, speed, lots of place to lie in the sun.... I had a chat with the yard owner a few weeks ago and it said 150K would be way too much anyway for a boat that age, as usual Oct/Nov is the right moment to strike a deal, summer prices are just for the gullible ones that "fall in love" with boating during a holiday. If you use 30/40K Euro as the typical expenses of keeping a 60 foot in Southern France (between berth, insurance, upkeeping, engine check and so on) and depreciation, you can see how offering for a boat before end of year do motivates the seller a lot (200K now or 250 minus berth / upkeeping and so on next year)...

The one on the bottom is btw a akir 19 - very similar boat and also a good one (provided is fiberglass and no wood. Older wooden yachts are basically free - like this one Baglietto 20M, owner asking 55K Euro "negotiable" which means if the owner likes your face you drive away with a almost free boat).


unnamed.jpg

And another word on buying/selling a boat, at least in Italy: you have 2 kinds of people putting a "for sale" sign up: the one that says "well I like my boat BUT if some guy gives me a lot of money THEN I will sell". This is the vast majority of the ads and are always totally overpriced.
Then are the ones that really want or need to seel, no interest anymore, last 8K bill for (example) turbo / water cooling repairs really stung and wife is bitching as hell. THOSE ones are where you can strike a deal (still do proper diligence with an expert, at least hull sanity / engines + transmissions / generator and aircon which are a must in the med, budget 30/40K for the unexpected, all the rest you can fix or ignore) - example this 1998 Princess 56 , was last in offer for 178.000 and they probably closed very close to 160 which I think is a good price.
A broker is 5% commission but is a very valuable expert and will steer you away from crap deals, they often know of boats that may fit your bill and are not so visibile in yachtworld etc.
 

Portofino

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Thoughts on Aicon56?
Poor , patchy build reputation as they went bust ( not sure how many times ) and many part made boats sold off each time and completed else where .That’s why they are cheap .
Having said that you might drop on a well made , carefully maintained one somewhere.
Rumours circulate they had lamination issues stringers coming off etc .
There are plenty of others better in the sub 60 ft market .
 

westernman

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One thing worth mentioning is that it seems that to drive a boat over 24M you need a different license than one under 24M in Europe. The license for over 24M is a lot harder to get. This means that most boats over 24M will in practice will have a professionally qualified paid captain.

This makes a boat just over 24M at lot less valuable on the second hand market than one just under 24M.

Note that 24M refers to load line length (at least for British Ships - EU rules might differ a little bit). No one seems to know exactly what that means or if the EU rules are different or not.
 

Buccaneer-USA

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One thing worth mentioning is that it seems that to drive a boat over 24M you need a different license than one under 24M in Europe. The license for over 24M is a lot harder to get. This means that most boats over 24M will in practice will have a professionally qualified paid captain.

This makes a boat just over 24M at lot less valuable on the second hand market than one just under 24M.

Note that 24M refers to load line length (at least for British Ships - EU rules might differ a little bit). No one seems to know exactly what that means or if the EU rules are different or not.

I hold a 100 Ton USCG Master’s ticket.
 

vas

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curious, I saw at some point earlier in the thread OP mentioning going up the Rhone.
No one seem to pick that one up.
So my ignorant Q: can a 60-80ft f/b boat go up there?
Not to mention I've no clue how you get to the Rhone from the Med but I guess there is a route up there :rolleyes:
 

prinex

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curious, I saw at some point earlier in the thread OP mentioning going up the Rhone.
No one seem to pick that one up.
So my ignorant Q: can a 60-80ft f/b boat go up there?
Not to mention I've no clue how you get to the Rhone from the Med but I guess there is a route up there :rolleyes:

Technically there is a lock in Port Saint Louis du Rhone to enter the river, as the mouth of the Rhone is too shallow to be navigated.

I did the route once from Basel in Switzerland to Port Saint Louis du Rhone with the 16mt 15ton trawler via Rhein River - Mosel if I remember (we went all the way to the North Sea and back). The long part is Port-Saint-Louis until the German border which has literally dozens of locks (190 or so) and needs 2 weeks to clear. Real problem for a normal boat is the speed limit which is 10 km/h (6.5 knots) which means your engines run basically on idle for hundred of hours and if you have a fly you could run into some bridge or tunnel problem (I don't remember the max height but it was not a lot, something like 2.90 meters or so).

In a few places I had to weight down the boat (using plastic bins and pumping water into the bins) to get the last 10 cm clearance.

The stretch from the Med to the Saone (basically past Lyon) is doable and there are a few large boats moored around there, reason is the locks are huge and no clearance problems.
 

Alicatt

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The Saone / Rhone to Lyon at least has the highest minimum air draught of 4.9m

If the purpose is to go up to the north sea then what about going via the Black Sea and Danube it has a higher minimum air draught but a longer journey
 

Buccaneer-USA

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Technically there is a lock in Port Saint Louis du Rhone to enter the river, as the mouth of the Rhone is too shallow to be navigated.

I did the route once from Basel in Switzerland to Port Saint Louis du Rhone with the 16mt 15ton trawler via Rhein River - Mosel if I remember (we went all the way to the North Sea and back). The long part is Port-Saint-Louis until the German border which has literally dozens of locks (190 or so) and needs 2 weeks to clear. Real problem for a normal boat is the speed limit which is 10 km/h (6.5 knots) which means your engines run basically on idle for hundred of hours and if you have a fly you could run into some bridge or tunnel problem (I don't remember the max height but it was not a lot, something like 2.90 meters or so).

In a few places I had to weight down the boat (using plastic bins and pumping water into the bins) to get the last 10 cm clearance.

The stretch from the Med to the Saone (basically past Lyon) is doable and there are a few large boats moored around there, reason is the locks are huge and no clearance problems.


I have read (but not yet seen charts to confirm) air draft along Rhone is 9m max.
Draft min is 2.5m.
Not correct.?
 

Alicatt

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I have read (but not yet seen charts to confirm) air draft along Rhone is 9m max.
Draft min is 2.5m.
Not correct.?
French Waterways say air draft is 7m, and 3.2m for water with a beam of 12m
From here:
River Rhone | Detailed Navigation Guide and Maps | French Waterways (french-waterways.com)

It is the Saone north of Lyon that has the lower air draft, again more info and maps on the above site.

Handy canal planning app on this website, it does European canals as well as UK ones.
CanalPlanAC — Canal Route Planner
 

PowerYachtBlog

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Poor , patchy build reputation as they went bust ( not sure how many times ) and many part made boats sold off each time and completed else where .That’s why they are cheap .
Having said that you might drop on a well made , carefully maintained one somewhere.
Rumours circulate they had lamination issues stringers coming off etc .
There are plenty of others better in the sub 60 ft market .

They only went bust once in 2012, and reopened in 2019 under American ownership.
Aicon opened in 2001 launched its first model the 56 in 02. Prior to boat building the company was a furniture maker founded in 92, and taking among many contracts for some Azimut Yacht models and Antago Yachts ( a builder more in line to compete with Sanlorenzo then other main stream builders). SL was not really known in those time outside of the Med and East American Coast.
There was about 20 not completed builds after the bust up (most marked 09 or newer) of the various 54, 56 (really only a couple), 58, 64, 62 Open, 72 Open, 75, 85 etc
The Fulvio de Simoni 56 was a hot seller (selling over 100 in 6 years production in no small part also thanks to the leasing bubble of the period 02 to 08) and from what I know build quality improved, and the newer the model is the better is the quality.
The 52 which was the second model Aicon presented ni 03 was a not a success mostly because it costed just about 10/15% less to the 56 but offered so much less. The model became 54 with a few changes in 06.
With the 64 launched in 04 which I never helmed one has always received nice accolades from people I know which have owned or helmed or captained one.
Early 56 (02-05) had some issues most where gelcoat which really oxidized fast, and a flexing upper structure.
These issued where rectified after 06 by what I was told.
64 (about 30 units) and 62 Open (about 20) sold also well as did the 85 flagship. 75 was launched in 07 when things started to slow, as was the 80 Open HT, and the 58 (an evolution of the 56). These launched in 08 as things started slowing down.

The problem with Aicon in around 07 is that Siclari (the original owner and founder) wanted to stock market list which he eventually did in 09 (not really a good time) in order to entice some hedge funder in the catch and sell the business. The ideas where good, and the boats where actually of a very nice design competing with the best at the time. He had very nice interiors, and did sign up one of the best designers in the business with De Simoni to succeed (rumours say he never got paid for the 56 and 52 the models he did) and eventually he went with the not very known at the time Sergio Cutolo, which today is very known thanks to his success with Cantiere delle Marche. The area where he build Aicon near Messina ie. Milazzo is not known for boat building, but in the area there was Rodriguez which was renowned among the best in the building of fast ships and further West to Palermo there was the Termini Imerese Fiat factory (closed in 2011).
Then Monti came in 2012 and his system couple to a recession closed over half of the Italian boat builders, with most now actually reopening.
 
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