Looking for advice - cat or monohull for med/aegean liveaboard?

[pja666]

Hi folks,
We're new to this site, so any and all advice/experience/anecdotes regarding what follows would be much appreciated!
We are in our early 50's and in the middle of gaining ICC certification with a view to abandoning the UK sometime in the next 3-5 years. During that 3-5 years we will be doing as much cruising as possible both to gain sailing/safety experience and to learn the realities of a life aboard. Ultimately, we intend renting our house out and permanently living aboard a boat in the Med or Aegean, cruising round the European and North African coastlines and islands and stopping off wherever we fancy. We are considering EITHER buying in the UK and sailing round Biscay, OR buying in the area we want to sail in if that is more practical/cost effective. We are not seeking to cross the Atlantic, but crossing the Med is a possibility even though we don't expect to be more than a mile or two offshore 90% of the time.
We have a budget of up to £40k to put the boat in the water in a safe, tidy and well maintained condition and are looking for something with a permanent fixed double berth (ie not a triangular one in the bows). I am a carpenter and joiner and, if I had to, could move non structural bulkheads around to shoehorn one into place if necessary so it comes down to having the space to accommodate this. The boat will also need to provide additional accommodation for up to 4 occasional visitors.
In essence, we are looking for comfort, ease of operation and low maintenance/mooring costs insofar as that is possible on any boat. So far, we have looked at both 30ft-37ft Catamarans and 35ft-44ft monohulls. Our initial researches seem to suggest that since we will be looking to stay on the one boat for about 10-15 years (or until we can't do it anymore due to age related problems), a catamaran might be favourite because of its stability both at sea and at anchor, their flat sailing profile and the ability to get into shallow bays. Having done a basic cat vs mono comparison, our thinking so far is that whilst a monohull under full sail is undoubtedly more of a "rush", we think it might be a bit too much to handle as we get older, what with the heeling over at 45 degrees whilst our 70 year old knees and ankles squeak in protest, and obviously it cant get so close into shore. At present therefore we are leaning towards a Catamaran. Having said that, it seems a 35-45ft broad beamed monohull with a decent tender might be an option as against a 30'+ catamaran, but 45 footers are generally well outside our budget or would require a lot of work to bring them up to scratch due to their age and in many cases having been subjected to severe stresses on transatlantic voyages or similar. We just don't know which way to jump, so if you can help us out with your own experiences/advice, including the comparative cat vs monohull maintenance/mooring cost issues referred to above, we'd be very, very grateful!
Many thanks,
Paul and Juliette (Bristol).

 

[RichardS]

Welcome to the forum.

I'm not sure when your post went live but the silence might be due to this being such a subjective subject which has been discussed many times.

My advice would be to charter / borrow a cat and a monohull for a few days and see what you think.

For us, a cat seemed to have lots of advantages and few disadvantages but they are more expensive in terms of mooring fees and parts and maintenace as there tend to be two of lots of things. This can also be an advantage though - a couple of weeks ago we got a net round one prop at night 50 miles from any land and in heavy seas there was no way I could swim down and clear it. So if we couldn't sail we just used one engine until we reached our destination. Even clearing the net was simple as the props are close to the surface although that means that they can pick up stuff more easily.

And so it goes on - every advantage can be a disadvantage in different circumstances!

If you search all the YBW forums you will probably find all the arguments either way.

Good luck

Richard

 

[Sybarite]

Welcome to the forum.

I'm not sure when your post went live but the silence might be due to this being such a subjective subject which has been discussed many times.

My advice would be to charter / borrow a cat and a monohull for a few days and see what you think.

For us, a cat seemed to have lots of advantages and few disadvantages but they are more expensive in terms of mooring fees and parts and maintenace as there tend to be two of lots of things. This can also be an advantage though - a couple of weeks ago we got a net round one prop at night 50 miles from any land and in heavy seas there was no way I could swim down and clear it. So if we couldn't sail we just used one engine until we reached our destination. Even clearing the net was simple as the props are close to the surface although that means that they can pick up stuff more easily.

And so it goes on - every advantage can be a disadvantage in different circumstances!

If you search all the YBW forums you will probably find all the arguments either way.

Good luck

Richard

+1 and welcome.

 

[vyv_cox]

A few points:
A decent catamaran for the money you have available might not exist. No doubt there are some older ones available but I don't think you are going to be very comfortable in the heat of the Med 365 days of the year.
For a budget of £40k you need to be looking for a boat at £30k, you will easily spend the other £10k on kit and equipment if you expect it to last 15 years. Before we set off we bought a new engine, new suit of sails, new fridge, new cooker, dinghy, outboard and much besides. It was an excellent investment, still going strong after 10 or 11 years but we spent well over the £10k on it all.
The 'shallow bays' point is not the case in much of the Med, where the bottom stays at 1.5 - 2 metres right to the edge. Obviously there are exceptions but we generally get as close in as almost anybody, drawing 1.4 metres.
Yachts very rarely heel to 45 degrees, ours is max about 25 with occasional 30. My 70 year old knees cope quite well.
There are many occasions, especially in the western Med, when turning up late in the day to find a berth in a port or even some bays with a catamaran is unlikely to meet with success. A monohull stands a much better chance.
The berthing cost has been made already. If you are living aboard all year you will need a winter berth somewhere. This will cost you twice as much or 1.5 times as much if you are lucky, with a cat.
There are some real bargain monohulls around, needing plenty of TLC but it sounds like you have the time and skills to do it.
Don't think you have to go to a boat as big as 45 ft, which many would consider far too big. Size costs money in every department. Our boat is 35 ft and plenty big enough but we have met people who live on boats as small as 26 ft full time.
Don't even think about the 'rush'. Sailing is great in most boats, given the right conditions, but you will motor for anything between 50 and 75% of your moving time in the Med and that will be less than 10% of total time. The vast majority of your life at sea will be anchored or berthed somewhere.

 

[Tranona]

The delay is because you are a new user and your posts have to clear the mods. Anyway welcome.

TBH with a budget or £40k you are unlikely to get a good up and running catamaran with the sort of space you are looking for, and will even struggle with a suitable monohull. The favourites at that sort of budget are older Westerly and Moody centre cockpit boats in the 33-36 range. There are others but those two makes are available in larger numbers than more obscure designs Typically you would spend up to £30k on buying one and the other £10k will disappear pretty quickly bringing it up to scratch. Many of these older boats come on the market because the owners can't face the level of expenditure required to keep them in good order.

There are pros and cons of buying here or there. The advantage of buying here is that you can spend a couple of years getting the boat together and learning about it. If you buy the right boat you can get to the Med via the canals which for many is the big adventure. The downside is that you will need a lot of gear to make it usable in hot climates. There are plenty of old boats of this type for sale in the Med, particularly in Greece and Spain. However they are often well past their best having done 5-10 years out there with the existing owner, or they are for sale in a neglected state after the dream turns sour. Generalisations - but it is really difficult to buy a good value older boat at a distance.

You will find that 90% of your time is spent stationary and roughly half of your moving time is under engine. There is little need to sail on your ear anywhere for long. Although the weather can be tough, it is relatively easy to avoid bad weather. After all you want a relaxing lifestyle. A cat is therefore of little advantage as the ones you could afford simply don't have the space and capability of a mono. Different if you have 2 or 3 times the budget which would allow you to buy a modern cat which would give real space benefits over an equivalent length mono - albeit with higher running costs, particularly moorings.

Suggest you do a couple of weeks bareboat chartering in the area in a 35' or so boat to find out if you like the heat and the lifestyle. Then look at the sort of boat you can get for your money (bearing in mind the refit bill) and then assess whether it is viable for you.

Sorry if it sounds negative, but for every one couple who take to the life successfully there is another where it ends in tears. So best to dip the toe in first before making the big commitment.

 

[Tranona]

Just to add a little bit more on the subject of budget. It is perhaps better to spend more on a newer better boat from the outset, rather than buy a boat that needs work. Just to give an example, if you go up £10k or so, my Bavaria 37 (2001) is for sale and is streets ahead of a 30-40 year old boat. It did us proud for 10 years in the Med and is fully equipped for cruising there. As it has a shallow keel there is the option of going through the canals - few modern boats of this size can do that. You can see the details on www.jryachts.com Not a sales pitch - just to give you an idea of what you can get for the money to compare with boats for a bit less. There are plenty of similar boats at similar prices for sale in Greece and Croatia and in my view are infinitely better value than older boats that need work.

 

[TQA]

Cats are better at anchor but they don't point as well and they are much more sensitive to weight. Cruisers carry lots of stuff. Cats cost more in marinas and it is likely in the Med that you will spend the winter in a marina. Single engine cats are more difficult to maneuver and at that price it is most likely to be a single.

I was going to say that you are restricted to a monohull just on price but did a Yachtworld search and surprise surprise 20 possibles turned up in Europe, Discounting the bib projects like the 50 ft Prout there are several possibles including a 35 ft Fountaine Pajot that I would be on my bike to look at with the readies in my hand.

So I think you do have a choice and if you can find a good 36 ft cat it will do the job. But attitude is more important than boat. I see people having a great time in old small boats.

Make sure your budget includes an electric anchor windlass.

Buy in the Med or sail out from the UK? I sailed out from the UK and really enjoyed the trip down including an easy crossing of Biscay. But I met people who had had a real bad time and were changing their plans some selling the boat. So do not underestimate that trip. But it can also be delightful, I have fond memories of crossing Biscay with a gentle 10 12 knots aft of the beam starry skies and gentle seas. But boats that left a week later were hit by a ferocious storm and there were several mayday rescues. We loved the rias of Spain and Portugal.

I am 68 and have a 44ft mono which I single hand about 1/2 the time.

 

[Melody]

I think the advice to try both for a short time is good.

As you're a carpenter and joiner are you interested in a bigger, older live aboard boat that needs work? I know of at least two for sale here because their owners unfortunately have had to stop sailing due to ill-health, and I'm sure there are plenty of others lurking in boatyards in the Med.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Don't dismiss a mobo, of which there are many to choose from in the med. Much more room for any given length. Two engines are safer. Generators and water makers are usually standard and internal power allows use of aircon when you need it. I know people who've added freezers and washing machines.....because they can
Also, although it's economical to pootle along a 8 knots, which we do most of the time, it's handy to be able to run up to 20 knots when things get rough. Choose around 40 to 50' and you can still go most places that sailing yachts go (if you want to)
Other considerations. You will spend more on fuel and servicing but as we usually spend a week in a place and travel in 30/40 mile hops the cost is manageable.
Even on a yacht you will spend 70 to 90% of your time running your engines depending on your enthusiasm for sailing and your endurance.
Our 47" is more comfortable than most apartments we've stayed in on holiday and has taken us most places we've wanted to go. Finally most of our yachtie friends want to come on our boat for a drink when we meet them....because it's more comfortable and there are far fewer fixings and bits to fall over when it's time to leave.

 

[tri39]

I suggest you visit Thornham marina and see the jetty of secondhand multihulls, Multihull World is the broker's name I believe.
Clambering onboard the affordable cats will be most instructive, some of them are not too far outside your budget!!
I've always cruised in the same multihull so perhaps cannot fairly compare them with monos.
In the Med I anchored as much as possible in the summer, easier in the eastern Med than the western Med.
Marinas that don't charge multis extra for winter storage do exist, eg Ragusa in Sicily, Cartagena in Spain.
Harder is getting hauled, but cats up to 6mtrs beam are easier than cats or tris over this figure.
I think flat sailing is easier and we had some strong winds exiting the Med this summer.
In fact it was sometimes cool and we had a day of fog in late July!
Two engines and two rudders on a cat is a distinct advantage imho, mind you twice the servicing!!
Multihulls are not at their best beating to windward, but all cruisers try to minimise it.
We had no trouble beating up the Adriatic, but the Aegean Meltemi is much more diff.
Off the wind multis shine.

 

[rivonia]

A cat is the best for living aboard. More room and storage. Downside more expensive to moor in a marina.

However your budget is a tad low for any decent cat. have a poke around Multihull world and any other specialist cat broker to get an idea. Have a charter holiday on a cat once you get your certificate.

Good luck

 

[vyv_cox]

A cat is the best for living aboard. More room and storage. Downside more expensive to moor in a marina.

Actually, I disagree. A mobo is by far the best boat for living on board, but the least enjoyable for getting from place to place. So arguably if we spend 90%+ of our time not moving we all should have mobos. Conversely, a monohull is the most enjoyable boat for getting around in but the least convenient for living on. A cat falls somewhere between in both areas. If we all lived by logic it would be easy to choose, but fortunately we don't.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Actually, I disagree. A mobo is by far the best boat for living on board, but the least enjoyable for getting from place to place. So arguably if we spend 90%+ of our time not moving we all should have mobos. Conversely, a monohull is the most enjoyable boat for getting around in but the least convenient for living on.

On the button Vyv, a conclusion I reached 25 years ago. Never changed my mind

 

[Sybarite]

Actually, I disagree. A mobo is by far the best boat for living on board, but the least enjoyable for getting from place to place. So arguably if we spend 90%+ of our time not moving we all should have mobos. Conversely, a monohull is the most enjoyable boat for getting around in but the least convenient for living on. A cat falls somewhere between in both areas. If we all lived by logic it would be easy to choose, but fortunately we don't.

When has logic ever played any part in our pastime?

 

[tcm]

Hi folks,
We're new to this site, so any and all advice/experience/anecdotes regarding what follows would be much appreciated!
We are in our early 50's and in the middle of gaining ICC certification with a view to abandoning the UK sometime in the next 3-5 years. During that 3-5 years we will be doing as much cruising as possible both to gain sailing/safety experience and to learn the realities of a life aboard. Ultimately, we intend renting our house out and permanently living aboard a boat in the Med or Aegean, cruising round the European and North African coastlines and islands and stopping off wherever we fancy. We are considering EITHER buying in the UK and sailing round Biscay, OR buying in the area we want to sail in if that is more practical/cost effective. We are not seeking to cross the Atlantic, but crossing the Med is a possibility even though we don't expect to be more than a mile or two offshore 90% of the time.
We have a budget of up to £40k to put the boat in the water in a safe, tidy and well maintained condition and are looking for something with a permanent fixed double berth (ie not a triangular one in the bows). I am a carpenter and joiner and, if I had to, could move non structural bulkheads around to shoehorn one into place if necessary so it comes down to having the space to accommodate this. The boat will also need to provide additional accommodation for up to 4 occasional visitors.
In essence, we are looking for comfort, ease of operation and low maintenance/mooring costs insofar as that is possible on any boat. So far, we have looked at both 30ft-37ft Catamarans and 35ft-44ft monohulls. Our initial researches seem to suggest that since we will be looking to stay on the one boat for about 10-15 years (or until we can't do it anymore due to age related problems), a catamaran might be favourite because of its stability both at sea and at anchor, their flat sailing profile and the ability to get into shallow bays. Having done a basic cat vs mono comparison, our thinking so far is that whilst a monohull under full sail is undoubtedly more of a "rush", we think it might be a bit too much to handle as we get older, what with the heeling over at 45 degrees whilst our 70 year old knees and ankles squeak in protest, and obviously it cant get so close into shore. At present therefore we are leaning towards a Catamaran. Having said that, it seems a 35-45ft broad beamed monohull with a decent tender might be an option as against a 30'+ catamaran, but 45 footers are generally well outside our budget or would require a lot of work to bring them up to scratch due to their age and in many cases having been subjected to severe stresses on transatlantic voyages or similar. We just don't know which way to jump, so if you can help us out with your own experiences/advice, including the comparative cat vs monohull maintenance/mooring cost issues referred to above, we'd be very, very grateful!
Many thanks,
Paul and Juliette (Bristol).

Iif going south, avoid teak decks - just teak in the cockpit. Not an issue with cats. With your (boatwise) quite limited budget of about £30k plus bits and pieces, I'd get a popular french-built boat like a beneteau or jeanneau etc, or a bavaria if I had to sail, or a mobo i suppose.

HOWEVER I think you ought to address your rather obvious trepidation about the venture. There are two references to the Atlantic and belief that it's very scary and/or super-dangerous, and other references to mostly being no more than two miles offshore, as if that's somehow going to be safer, which it isn't , not really. It's nice to concentrate on the boat, the kit and so on, but you do need to become happier at the idea of being on the sea, and often out of sight of land. Argh! The further away from the shore your boat is, the less at risk it is. You look after the boat, the boat looks after you. Actually heh, ok, it's really safe once yiou're actually ON the shore and the boat tied up, and I wonder if that's the bit you really fancy?

Hey - here's a test for you and your other half. You say something along the lines of "You know darling, I've been thinking about this boat thing - they are rather expensive and there's all that marina stuff and being cold in winter since yerknow, not going to the caribbean, plus the waves which will batter us about all leaning on a mono or weirdy more jerky mobo-type motion on a catamaran except at anchor etc etc so I wonder - how about we buy a quite swanky motorhome instead? Loads cheaper, lots of free places to stay, and we could sling a small boat on the roof for exploring thr coast AND we can tootle all over the place - inland places, not just the coast, hm?

If she says well alright if you're sure, ok let's look at camper vans - then she didn't much want to live on a boat, did she? If she says aw! I was really wanting a boat please boat boat boat ... well at least you know it's gotta be a boat

 

[pja666]

Thanks one and all for the very helpful advice and suggestions, food for thought and no mistake. Once we've digested everything you've all said, we shall come back in more detail, and meanwhile we're very grateful to all of you for your assistance to a pair of wannabees!
Paul & Juliette.

 

[vyv_cox]

To the OP (if still interested!) Might be worth opening the link on the bartaring(!) thread. It's about a couple who have lived on a 35 ft boat for the past 17 years, all over the world.

 

[daveg45]

Get a monohull. After all cats aren't real boats are they!

 

[RupertW]

Never been a true liveaboard but did a cross Atlantic in a cat and have chartered many cats in the Caribbean before settling on a monohull for cruising the in the Med.

Given a lot more finance I would go for a cat every time for living aboard, short sails and serious blue water sailing. Motor boats can roll a lot at anchor when cats just don't. As long as it's a two engine cat you have redundant systems and amazing manouverability. And beating along at 6 knots completely upright can be sustained for a long time, even at an angle 10 degrees worse than a monohull.

And despite all that we bought a monohull. Reasons are largely financial - even at double your budget (including basic re-equipping and refurbishment) a catamaran was way too expensive. The second reason is that we are not yet liveaboards or likely to do cross-Ocean sailing very soon, so need to keep the boat in a marina and visit it for cruising a few times a year, so once again finance matters. Finally we like to tie up at Town quays every few nights, especially if we have inexperienced guests and that's harder for cats.

 

[tcm]

Never been a true liveaboard but did a cross Atlantic in a cat and have chartered many cats in the Caribbean before settling on a monohull for cruising the in the Med.

Given a lot more finance I would go for a cat every time for living aboard, short sails and serious blue water sailing. Motor boats can roll a lot at anchor when cats just don't. As long as it's a two engine cat you have redundant systems and amazing manouverability. And beating along at 6 knots completely upright can be sustained for a long time, even at an angle 10 degrees worse than a monohull.

And despite all that we bought a monohull. Reasons are largely financial - even at double your budget (including basic re-equipping and refurbishment) a catamaran was way too expensive. The second reason is that we are not yet liveaboards or likely to do cross-Ocean sailing very soon, so need to keep the boat in a marina and visit it for cruising a few times a year, so once again finance matters. Finally we like to tie up at Town quays every few nights, especially if we have inexperienced guests and that's harder for cats.

I agree with all this. Modern cats are for those who
- liveaboard 100% of the time
- aren't restricted by their location such that they can (if they want) sit at anchor 100% of the time - so that means not Europe
- have a lot more than $40k to spend on buying the boat in the first place...