Liveaboard UK passport holder with Italian wife - Schengen 90/180 rule

[smithadr]

I have a UK passport so when the UK leaves the EU I will lose the unrestricted EU travel rights I have enjoyed up until now.

My wife has dual nationality as her parents were Italian and she has a UK passport AND an Italian EU passport.

We are both UK residents and have lived in the UK all our lives. We are looking at the possibility of liveboard in the Med over the next few years.

My question is, will we be able to travel around Schengen for as long as we like or will we be restricted to 3 months (90 days) per 6 month period (180 days) ?

The EU website does saye "All EU citizens and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the EU. This is set forth in Article 21 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union."

Any help greatly appreciated....

Adrian

 

[atol]

did you apply for your italian passport yet

 

[syvictoria]

I have a UK passport so when the UK leaves the EU I will lose the unrestricted EU travel rights I have enjoyed up until now.

My wife has dual nationality as her parents were Italian and she has a UK passport AND an Italian EU passport.

We are both UK residents and have lived in the UK all our lives. We are looking at the possibility of liveboard in the Med over the next few years.

My question is, will we be able to travel around Schengen for as long as we like or will we be restricted to 3 months (90 days) per 6 month period (180 days) ?

The EU website does saye "All EU citizens and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the EU. This is set forth in Article 21 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union."

Any help greatly appreciated....

Adrian

Hi and welcome! We are in an almost identical situation to you. I was since 2016 firmly of the belief that citizenship of one of a married/civil partnered couple was sufficient to enable ongoing freedom of movement (as a couple, together) from 1/1/21, until autumn 2020 when another thread here convinced me that the citizen in question also needed to be resident in the EU too. That was a dark day indeed! I have however since come back to the conclusion that citizenship is actually all that is required, as I think is confirmed by Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004. Some here seem to disagree with me, but there are many other forum threads, blog posts, etc. dealing with very similar situations for land based travel by other third country residents (American, etc.) who have come to the same conclusion. Sadly they have invariably not returned to said forum threads to confirm that their travels and border crossings went ahead as planned, but one can only assume so as there seems to be no evidence to the contrary. I sincerely hope that I'm right.

EDIT: When I mentioned FoM above, I failed to clarify that the non-EU citizen could only travel with his/her spouse, not separately.

 

[syvictoria]

did you apply for your italian passport yet

Why does that matter, except for the potential delay? If you are eligible by birth, you are eligible by birth.

I haven't yet been able to complete my application for a second passport as it requires a trip to the consulate and getting an appointment and travel there this year has been very tricky due to covid! Next year will I think be a bit of a right off anyway, again due primarily to covid, so I'm not too worried about the delay.

 

[atol]

Why does that matter, except for the potential delay? If you are eligible by birth, you are eligible by birth.

I haven't yet been able to complete my application for a second passport as it requires a trip to the consulate and getting an appointment and travel there this year has been very tricky due to covid! Next year will I think be a bit of a right off anyway, again due primarily to covid, so I'm not too worried about the delay.

he should be eligible for an italian passport after 5 years of marrige ,same as the spouse of a uk passport holder would be to get a uk passport
residence does not confir the same rights,nor was he born in italy

 

[syvictoria]

he should be eligible for an italian passport after 5 years of marrige ,same as the spouse of a uk passport holder would be to get a uk passport
residence does not confir the same rights,nor was he born in italy

I don't know off hand the specific rules in Italy, but a lot of countries require more than just marriage in order to issue a spouse a passport/citizenship. Residency over a period of time is also often a requirement and the OP states that he and his wife are both UK residents (and have always been). There is no suggestion that the OP thinks that he's entitled to an Italian passport. It is, I think, freedom of movement of a spouse/close family member that is the purpose of the question (but I could be wrong - I often am!!! ).

 

[atol]

I don't know off hand the specific rules in Italy, but a lot of countries require more than just marriage in order to issue a spouse a passport/citizenship. Residency over a period of time is also often a requirement and the OP states that he and his wife are both UK residents (and have always been). There is no suggestion that the OP thinks that he's entitled to an Italian passport. It is, I think, freedom of movement of a spouse/close family member that is the purpose of the question (but I could be wrong - I often am!!! ).

he should be able to apply for residency in italy or a long stay visa without problem but this would only apply to italy not the whole of the eu,only an eu passport will allow FoM throughout the eu for indefinite stays

 

[syvictoria]

he should be able to apply for residency in italy or a long stay visa without problem but this would only apply to italy not the whole of the eu,only an eu passport will allow FoM throughout the eu for indefinite stays

The above perhaps ignores the fact (benefit) that the wife holds Italian citizenship and as an EU citizen, she is entitled to have her spouse/close family members travel with/accompany her throughout the EU.

The OP doesn't mention a requirement to be resident in Italy, only the desire to liveaboard in the Med (I assumed cruising). Any non-criminal should in theory be able to apply for temporary residency/a long stay visa in Italy (or indeed any other EU country) assuming that they are willing to pay the required fees and produce the required supporting documents. They don't need an EU spouse to do this. However as Atol acknowledges, this on it's own doesn't help outside the visa-issuing country or the 90/180 (which I think has to be used up before a long stay visa can be issued).

 

[atol]

best check out this website for definitive answers,however for full FoM throughout the EU i would explore the possibilities of gaining an EU passport
Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU

If you are a non-EU citizen married to an EU citizen, you can join your spouse in the EU country where they live.
Staying abroad for up to 3 months
If you stay for less than 3 months, all you need is a valid passport and an entry visa depending on the country you are from.
Check the entry visa requirements/exemptions in the EU.
Before you leave, check with the consulate of the country you are going to if you need an entry visa, and if so, how long it will take to get it.
Staying abroad for more than 3 months
If you are staying for longer than 3 months in your spouse's host country, you have to apply for a residence card and report your presence to the relevant authorities.

 

[syvictoria]

best check out this website for definitive answers,however for full FoM throughout the EU i would explore the possibilities of gaining an EU passport

A passport is far and beyond the best option - agreed. However, for many (most), this will be impossible to acquire due to the long (genuine) residency requirements involved.

Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU

If you are a non-EU citizen married to an EU citizen, you can join your spouse in the EU country where they live.
Staying abroad for up to 3 months
If you stay for less than 3 months, all you need is a valid passport and an entry visa depending on the country you are from.
Check the entry visa requirements/exemptions in the EU.
Before you leave, check with the consulate of the country you are going to if you need an entry visa, and if so, how long it will take to get it.
Staying abroad for more than 3 months
If you are staying for longer than 3 months in your spouse's host country, you have to apply for a residence card and report your presence to the relevant authorities.

I believe that that's the law as it stands relating to a spouse/family member joining an EU citizen who is already resident in the EU. I believe that the OP is asking about cruising throughout the Med without residency in any EU state?

For those who wish to move about throughout the EU as a couple/family unit, the following, whilst similar, is I think likely to be more relevant:

Right of residence for up to three months
1.Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2.The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

(Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004).

My understanding is that Article 6 provides for temporary residency for up to 90 days in any EU state and with no other limit or requirement (other than for one passport holder/EU citizen). It's therefore my belief that those eligible could spend multiple 90 day (or less) periods back to back in multiple states under the provision of Article 6, along with their spouse and without the need for any additional visa/residency. E.g.: travelling from France to Italy to Greece for example over a 9 month (3 x 90 day) period, or indeed from France to Italy and back to France again.

 

[atol]

A passport is far and beyond the best option - agreed. However, for many (most), this will be impossible to acquire due to the long (genuine) residency requirements involved.



I believe that that's the law as it stands relating to a spouse/family member joining an EU citizen who is already resident in the EU. I believe that the OP is asking about cruising throughout the Med without residency in any EU state?

For those who wish to move about throughout the EU as a couple/family unit, the following, whilst similar, is I think likely to be more relevant:



(Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004).

My understanding is that Article 6 provides for temporary residency for up to 90 days in any EU state and with no other limit or requirement (other than for one passport holder/EU citizen). It's therefore my belief that those eligible could spend multiple 90 day (or less) periods back to back in multiple states under the provision of Article 6, along with their spouse and without the need for any additional visa/residency. E.g.: travelling from France to Italy to Greece for example over a 9 month (3 x 90 day) period, or indeed from France to Italy and back to France again.

doubtful as even an eu citizen needs to apply for a local tax number and various other documents pertaining to residence when moving to another eu country after 6 months

 

[syvictoria]

doubtful as even an eu citizen needs to apply for a local tax number and various other documents pertaining to residence when moving to another eu country after 6 months

Why are you so obsessed about residency!? I am trying to provide the OP with an option to enable cruising without residency.

 

[atol]

Why are you so obsessed about residency!? I am trying to provide the OP with an option to enable cruising without residency.

because residency or a long stay visa is required for stays of over 90 days for any non eu passport holder regardless of what passport their spouse holds
there is no provision to stay more than 90 days out of 180

 

[syvictoria]

because residency or a long stay visa is required for stays of over 90 days for any non eu passport holder regardless of what passport their spouse holds
there is no provision to stay more than 90 days out of 180

So you are disagreeing with my understanding of Article 6 then? If so, where is the 90 day limit * you mentioned specified please? I fully appreciate that if travelling alone, the Schengen Rule would apply to the non-EU citizen, but if travelling with an EU spouse, I believe that the EU rules override this (much as has been the case for Brits historically as EU but not Schengen area citizens).

EDIT: * To clarify, Article 6 mentions a limit of 90 days in any one state, not 90/180.

 

[atol]

So you are disagreeing with my understanding of Article 6 then? If so, where is the 90 day limit you mentioned specified please? I fully appreciate that if travelling alone, the Schengen Rule would apply to the non-EU citizen, but if travelling with an EU spouse, I believe that the EU rules override this (much as has been the case for Brits historically as EU but not Schengen area citizens).

if you check the link i posted it is quite clear,in black and white direct from the EU government website,no residence,no stay.
Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU

 

[syvictoria]

if you check the link i posted it is quite clear,in black and white direct from the EU government website,no residence,no stay.
Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU

DELETED - sorry, I hit save before I meant to!

 

[MapisM]

I don't know off hand the specific rules in Italy

After 3 years from the marriage, the OP is entitled to the Italian citizenship, regardless of residency.
Would the couple's residency have been in Italy, that's shortened to 2 years.
And these terms are further reduced to half in both cases, if the couple has any children.
A no brainer, 'fiuaskme.

 

[syvictoria]

The link states: You [the non-EU citizen] must apply for a residence document with the authorities in your host EU country (often the town hall or local police station) within 3 months of arriving.

What if you and your spouse move to another state on day 89? The clock surely starts ticking again, and once again you are entitled to travel with your spouse under EU (not Schengen) rules? No?

 

[syvictoria]

After 3 years from the marriage, the OP is entitled to the Italian citizenship, regardless of residency.
Would the couple's residency have been in Italy, that's shortened to 2 years.
And these terms are further reduced to half in both cases, if the couple has any children.
A no brainer, 'fiuaskme.

That's surely very convenient! Sadly my second passport won't be an Italian one and so this isn't a solution for us... I'm very happy for the OP though if his problem is solved so easily.

 

[atol]

The link states: You [the non-EU citizen] must apply for a residence document with the authorities in your host EU country (often the town hall or local police station) within 3 months of arriving.

What if you and your spouse move to another state on day 89? The clock surely starts ticking again, and once again you are entitled to travel with your spouse under EU (not Schengen) rules? No?

no 90/180 unless you go to a non shengen country for 90 days like croatia,albania,bulgaria rumania etc