Liveaboard Sailboat Advice

sailaboutvic

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make sure the boat has at least 50mm of insulation throughout with a wood burner or diesel drip feed heater,uninsulated fiberglass boats become like rainforests inside in the winter,damp,dripping ,moldy and condensation prone
wooden,cored or steel with spray foam are far more suitable
One of the biggest problem living on a boat in winter in a cold climate, even in the med some people have a hell of a time keeping there boat dry .
Mind you at less you have an morning alarm clock when it drips on your face in the morning while you sleeping .
 

Rae_Else

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Thanks for all the advice; we have lots to think about.

We are UK nationals, and will be holding onto our current home as a 'base', so we won't have any issues with UK paperwork I believe. We are likely to be staying in a marina in the early days to get used to the boat, and it is likely that we would be looking at the beginning of the off-season (which is not the best timing) so a marina berth would help us there. We are hoping to get out of marinas as soon as we can though, and live mainly on moorings and/or at anchor as much as we can - to save costs and have the freedom of being detached from land!

We are very much used to laptop working, and envisage working on the boat, but also a lot of working from cafes, hotel lobbies, and shared work spaces for variety and when we feel the need to have more space.

The tiny liveaboard lifestyle appeals to us a lot. We like to keep things simple and don't like to have a lot of 'stuff', although it will be a bit of a culture shock for us at first, I'm sure. The biggest reason for us going for a smaller boat is really about the ease of handling - with only two of us on board, we want to have confidence that we can sail and manouvere the boat safely. We are also novice sailors, so will be looking to learn as we go - we will be aiming to hire an instructor to help us get started and fill in any gaps in our knowledge.

Any advice on what to look for in a small first liveaboard (esp. in the UK) would be much appreciated (heating and hot water are firmly on this list now). We have been planning for this for a couple of years now, and feel that we need to just get out there and do it!
 

Kelpie

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We started out with a 16ft dinghy, then a 27ft yacht, moved up to 33ft, and now (and probably finally) 39ft. Have not lived aboard full time on any of them, but the plan is to move aboard next year for a few years of bluewater cruising.

Big vs small is an interesting trade-off. I would say that whilst learning the ropes, smaller can certainly be better as the forces involved are manageable. Come in to a pontoon too fast? Grab a rope and you can stop the boat yourself. Need to push off from a berth because the wind is pinning you in? Just use the boathook. It's especially valuable when you are closing fast on a big expensive boat and realise that you might not have enough fenders out. Then there's the costs and effort involved in maintenance and upgrades- on our 27ft boat we quite happily splashed the cash for a whole new rig (minus mast). Doing the same on the new boat would cost about as much as the smaller yacht cost in total.

But the bigger boat has upsides too. It's not just about comfort and storage. The bigger the boat, the smaller the waves and the shorter the passages. We are quite happy and comfortable in a F6 now in a way that we never were before (don't get me wrong- we did plenty of miles in poor conditions, but it stops being much fun after a few hours on a small boat). Being able to stay at sea in worse conditions, and making faster passages, has made a real difference to how we cruise. Destinations seem closer together, and we spend much less time holed up somewhere waiting for better weather.
In terms of comfort, one surprising thing we've found as our boats got bigger was that condensation stops being a problem. On the first yacht we used to drain pasta outside, otherwise the whole cabin would be steamed up all evening. Since moving up a size, that just stopped. I think it's the greater volume of the cabin which can cope with more moisture in the air.

It is true that smaller boat will be easier to handle in a marina, but once you are living at anchor I think it makes much less difference.

Maybe you could consider getting a simple, small, cheap boat for a year or so, and learn the basics of sailing whilst living aboard in a marina. Being in a berth would alleviate many of the donwsides of being on a small boat- you could keep a car ashore for extra storage, bulky things like bikes could stay ashore, and a fan heater running on shorepower would eliminate the condensation problems. You would likely only go our for day sails or short cruises and so not be so worried about passage speeds or getting caught out by bad weather.
Then, once you know what you're getting yourself in to, move up to a larger boat and say goodbye to the marine berth, at least for the summers. The money you save by doing this will greatly help offset the extra cost of the big boat. For the little boat, get something well known and easy to sell on, and try to avoid the temptation to embark on massive upgrade projects.
 

Graham376

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We are hoping to get out of marinas as soon as we can though, and live mainly on moorings and/or at anchor as much as we can - to save costs and have the freedom of being detached from land!

The tiny liveaboard lifestyle appeals to us a lot. We like to keep things simple and don't like to have a lot of 'stuff', although it will be a bit of a culture shock for us at first, I'm sure. The biggest reason for us going for a smaller boat is really about the ease of handling - with only two of us on board, we want to have confidence that we can sail and manouvere the boat safely. We are also novice sailors, so will be looking to learn as we go - we will be aiming to hire an instructor to help us get started and fill in any gaps in our knowledge.

Living on moorings is good but has drawbacks, particularly when it's blowing hard. Decent size dinghy and outboard needed for daily trips ashore so you will need to be able to stow it, ours hangs from gantry which is also the solar panel mount - something else to think about, you don't want to be running the engine to charge batteries, not good for a diesel.

Small has advantages in easier sail handling but more tiring on passage and livelier on mooring than a larger boat. Larger boats are far more comfortable at sea. Our first boat was 26ft, second 31ft, third 35 ft and we've had 38ft for the last 17 years or so. I wouldn't consider anything under around 35/36ft as a liveaboard for us as a couple, we spend around 6/7 months aboard, moored or anchored normally, avoiding marinas where possible.
 

Rae_Else

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Thanks for the insights. Really helpful to understand how others started.

Maybe you could consider getting a simple, small, cheap boat for a year or so, and learn the basics of sailing whilst living aboard in a marina.

I think this is pretty much our plan - we are not looking for our 'forever' boat (and I doubt such a thing exists), but are looking for something that allows us to get started. Also, we want to live as sustainably so want to avoid debt if we can, hence aiming for a smaller, cheaper boat to get started with.
 

Kelpie

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You could do worse than look for a Centaur, or one of the 31ft Westerlies of the same era. A lot of boat for the money, pretty solid, relatively easy to sell on. You can get a decent Centaur for about £5k these days and that's about the minimum amount of boat I could imagine a couple being able to live on for a year or so.

Don't get fixated on a particular model though- keep a very open mind and look at condition and equipment.
 

Rae_Else

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You could do worse than look for a Centaur, or one of the 31ft Westerlies of the same era. A lot of boat for the money, pretty solid, relatively easy to sell on. You can get a decent Centaur for about £5k these days and that's about the minimum amount of boat I could imagine a couple being able to live on for a year or so.

Don't get fixated on a particular model though- keep a very open mind and look at condition and equipment.

Certainly looking at Westerlys, but looking more at the £20-25k mark, ideally a Storm, or maybe a Fulmar. Also keen on the Moody 31s or 33s, and Sadler 32. Perhaps we are aiming a bit high for our first boat? We are after something that is in sail away condition ideally and certainly not a project boat at this stage.
 

Kelpie

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Certainly looking at Westerlys, but looking more at the £20-25k mark, ideally a Storm, or maybe a Fulmar. Also keen on the Moody 31s or 33s, and Sadler 32. Perhaps we are aiming a bit high for our first boat? We are after something that is in sail away condition ideally and certainly not a project boat at this stage.

Ah right. That's a very healthy budget for a first boat. The boats you list are excellent coastal cruisers and quite comfy for a couple, for a few weeks if not longer. I know a couple who cruise on a Konsort and are very happy with their choice. Definitely at the small end of what would be viable long term.

If it were me, I would be thinking about spending a bit less on the first boat, and putting that budget in to the next boat. That's going to be the one where you will want to upgrade loads of stuff, make modifications, and add expensive gear.
 

Hadenough

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Welcome to the forum, I'd say go and see some boats, as many as you can and you'll start to get a feel for what's available for your budget. If your budget is £20k look at anything up to £30k even - it's a buyer's market. Most marinas have a few liveaboards, even marinas that have loads like Brighton where I am you're not officially (according to the small print in the contract) supposed to. There aren't many marinas where they absolutely will not tolerate the odd quiet, well behaved liveaboard with a boat that's kept seaworthy...
I would watch this space! We are returning to the UK after cruising abroad for some years and are finding that some marinas are reviewing their Nelsons Eye policies regarding livaboards. Some we have spoken to are saying that because of their inability to close down for coronavirus as they have liveaboards on berths are now tightening their attitude. Add to that the risk of further outbreaks, lockdowns, restrictions, in the current climate in the medium term I would be wary of considering a total livaboard lifestyle unless you have a landside bolthole immediately available.
 
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Bajansailor

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Here is a link to the Tiny Liveaboard's group on FB -
Tiny Liveaboards (Less than 33 feet!)

Have you done a search on www.yachtworld.co.uk for boats for sale?
You can type in constraints re size, age, cost and location, as well as different types of sailing boat - and then see what 'turns up'.

How many nights have you spent on board yachts so far?
If not very many, then rather than jumping straight in now by buying a boat, it might be better to get some experience on some other boats first? Are there any yacht charter companies in the UK opened up again now where you could hire a boat for a week or two if your experience is relatively limited so far?

I'll leave you with a link to these folk - I met them here in Barbados 31 year ago, after they had crossed from the Canaries on their Cal 25. I remember thinking at the time that the boat seemed a bit small for two people to live on board......
I met them again, 6 years later, in Antigua - in the meantime they had sailed around the world on Direction, had 2 kids along the way, and kid #3 was going to show up soon. Dave commented that the only gear failure they had in 6 years was in the family planning department.....:)
So they then moved up to a 33' steel boat and the five of them lived on that for some years, including winters in Iceland.
https://www.goodoldboat.com/pdfs/JF05MartinDream.pdf
 

convey

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I'm going to admit off the bat, I'm the President of the National Anti-Liveaboard League (NALL). Our motto is, SBAFS ("Sailing boats are for sailing"). There's nothing more depressing that seeing a sailing boat that's be lived squatted on for a long time and, invariably, dumped on a harbour authority to get rid of. It's very hard wear on any boat, and it uses up a berth, and pushed up the prices of berths, for people who might actually want to sail.

It's yet another byproduct of evil landlordocractic economy, that people are being pushed out of houses and onto sailing devices and into harbours, to squat on the cheap (or for the sake of AirBnBing their bricks for a high profit) that then spoils other people's lives. Twice over if you're going the AirBnB route.

However, as churlish as that might read, there's also an element of compassion in it, as it's underlining that sailing boats are designed for sailing and sailing has different requirements from living, eg sailing boats have small windows, low freeboard (less cabin height), poor ventillation (less hole for water to come in), and an essentially good shape for sailing but a poor shape for living (narrow bottom). Add to which your inexperience or lack of prior commitments to the lifesyle (or being cold, wet, damp at night, dripped on in the morning, and required to carry on and carry off anything and everything you consume).

A boat isn't a campervan, and the sea not a road.

Therefore, why not give yourselves at least a little break and go for a motorsailer first? Bigger windows, more headheight, more shelter, more engine to get you out of trouble (dare I say it, more like a campervan). I'd also have an aft cabin on my shopping list for when one of you reaches the point of mutiny.

But, may be before you do, as it's July now and hard to guage, ask your local butcher if you can sleep the night in their cold store (circa 4°C), to get a feel of what you are letting yourself into for 5 months of the year*, unless you're going to spend even more money "winterising" whatever sailing boat you buy for the UK climate.

Trouble is, most nice sailing boats are taken out of the water for winter and, hence, not designed to be in it then.

I suppose now, because of Brexist, young people cannot just go and live in Romania or Bulgaria on the cheap, and fly back when they need for work? They are trapped in Old Blighty.

They've already choked all the canals around London, I guess we are going to be seeing more of this right at the time when so many old fashioned yards are shutting down.

On the other hand, if you're thinking of going the whole Youtube sailing channel thing, why not post a photo of yourself in a skimmy bikini so we can work out if it's going to work?

* (I was going to suggest, 'in a damp sleeping bag' too).
 
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ryanroberts

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I can heartily recommend motor sailors as liveaboards. Mine is ideal for mouldering away at the dock taking up space.


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convey

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I can heartily recommend motor sailors as liveaboards. Mine is ideal for mouldering away at the dock taking up space.
Very nice. It looks like it could cope with a spin up the Norwegian coast to the Arctic and back.

The Scandinanvians build some nice ones, although I'm not telling which as I don't want them taken off active sailing service. Someone just sold a Fisher 25 around their budget which would have done well. The shape should give you an idea why.

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differentroads

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Sounds like you've got your head screwed on right and your plan is very do-able if you can scale down your lifestyle to small boat living. Critical factors from my experience are a beamy boat wih lots of interior volume and good storage -Westerlies are a good example - and having seperate cabins to storm off to when you have a row or merely to get away from that irritating conference call. A fan heater and an oil filled radiator will sort out winter heating while you are plugged in to the mains.

When living in and working from a small boat the onshore facilities become very important. Showers and toilets, laundry, reliable 4G and wifi, access to transport and whatever social scene you like (remember socialising? Its coming back into fashion I'm told). In your shoes I'd consider choosing a location and then the boat, given that you say its not your ultimate boat. There might well be a good enough boat for sale there or close by which saves time and money.

I lived on and frequently worked from my Offshore 34 in Ipswich for a year before heading to the Med. I can recommend it. The two marinas in the old wet dock have good phone coverage, indifferent wifi; lots of cafes and hotels with good wifi; are close to railway station and managed workspaces; have decent facilities and they happily tolerate liveaboards. Of the two I'd strongly commend Haven Marina for its supportive management and staff.
 

nortada

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Sounds like you've got your head screwed on right and your plan is very do-able if you can scale down your lifestyle to small boat living. Critical factors from my experience are a beamy boat wih lots of interior volume and good storage -Westerlies are a good example - and having seperate cabins to storm off to when you have a row or merely to get away from that irritating conference call. A fan heater and an oil filled radiator will sort out winter heating while you are plugged in to the mains.

When living in and working from a small boat the onshore facilities become very important. Showers and toilets, laundry, reliable 4G and wifi, access to transport and whatever social scene you like (remember socialising? Its coming back into fashion I'm told). In your shoes I'd consider choosing a location and then the boat, given that you say its not your ultimate boat. There might well be a good enough boat for sale there or close by which saves time and money.

I lived on and frequently worked from my Offshore 34 in Ipswich for a year before heading to the Med. I can recommend it. The two marinas in the old wet dock have good phone coverage, indifferent wifi; lots of cafes and hotels with good wifi; are close to railway station and managed workspaces; have decent facilities and they happily tolerate liveaboards. Of the two I'd strongly commend Haven Marina for its supportive management and staff.

Lots of interesting advice. How long since you left Ipswich?
 

Gerry

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We have lived aboard for the past twenty years-the last six of which we have been in the uk. Whilst we have a spacious 40 feet we have met many over the years happily living in much smaller boats. Our experience is that you expand to fill the space available! The main observation I would make is the need for a good source of dry heat, absolutely essential for comfortable living in the uk. We have a cubic grizzly stove- runs on logs- they make a smaller cubic mini which suits smaller boats
 

nortada

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We have lived aboard for the past twenty years-the last six of which we have been in the uk. Whilst we have a spacious 40 feet we have met many over the years happily living in much smaller boats. Our experience is that you expand to fill the space available! The main observation I would make is the need for a good source of dry heat, absolutely essential for comfortable living in the uk. We have a cubic grizzly stove- runs on logs- they make a smaller cubic mini which suits smaller boats

We have lived on board since 2001 both in the UK and overseas and agree all the points you make.

Condensation is a killer!
 

RolyGate

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Choice of boat: not a Sadler 32 or similar (Contessa), they are too small inside for a liveaboard couple. Great seaboat in a gale, club cruiser, offshore racer, holiday for a month - that kind of thing. A liveaboard boat needs volume for living space and stowage. OK the Sadler is double skinned on the headliner but that's a drawback for a liveaboard, because you'll need to put some more insulation up there and a basic 1-skin cabin top with liner makes that a whole lot easier. I lived on a Sadler 32 for a couple of years but I'm solo.

Now I'm a UK liveaboard on a bigger boat. For that sort of duty I recommend a diesel or multifuel coal/log stove. Dickinson or Reflex are good. I don't get any diesel smell off the Dickinson. Most of these need a decent length of chimney, my Dickinson Newport needs at least 5 feet for a good draw up the flue. Always get a barometric damper for the chimney on one of these.

Never burn coal and logs at the same time in a multifuel stove, it rots the flue. You don't need or want a double-skin flue, half the heat from a Dickinson dripfeed diesel stove comes from the stainless flue. It turns blue/yellow at the bottom it's so hot. It does need a safety cover on the side you might fall on it in a seaway. Also get a stove fan, they move the warm air around. I recommend one with greater than 300cfm performance as small ones cost almost as much but don't do enough for the beer coupons invested. A 300cfm+ Peltier fan is ideal; the Stirling motor ones are no good: too expensive, too slow fan speed, too little effect. A good fan adds about half a kilowatt in effect and helps in other ways. A stove + fan like this is not enough to heat 3 large cabins unless you turn the stove up enough the saloon is unbearably hot.

You can also get a Chinese diesel blower as a fast way to heat the boat when coming aboard, or put it in another cabin - they are so cheap now they're almost free - a ridiculous price. Cheap spares and easy to fix. Just run it for 15 minutes at full power if you've run it low for a time, to burn the soot off the internals. Stupid not to have one as they are so cheap - £150 or £200 for an Eberspacher equivalent @ £1,500 - and half of those on boats I know of are broken anyway. These blowers have to be run on full power every now and then or they soot up and fail.

In the UK you'll need more insulation on the deckhead. That's all there is to it. So make sure you have good standing headroom through the saloon because the deckhead will be coming down a bit. It's why a double-skin is no use, a removable liner is better, then you can add insulation.

Condensation isn't a problem, we have mains-powered dessicant dehumidifiers now, not those old clunkers, the compressor models. Those weigh a ton, the new ones are lightweight and easy to stow in the summer. I have a Meaco J8, it pulls litres of water out of the air daily when it's wet / cold / rainy or with wet laundry. They work right down to cold-cold so there are no worries there. The Meaco wins all the boat dehumidifier tests for good reason. It dries the boat so much I do my laundry then hang it on a rack in the boat while wet, then put the Meaco in that cabin, the clothes are soon dry. You can dial up any cabin humidity you want from about 70% (average UK springtime normal is about 60%) to 30% or less - so dry it begins to dry out your throat too much. Damp lockers are no more, the boat is bone dry. It draws about 300W to 600W so you can run it off an inverter easily.

I use a slimline washing machine on the boat, a 6kg load one, the regular kind not a washer/dryer. Those pull 2.5kW for an hour and a half in order to dry a wash, so you'd need a generator or big battery and inverter system to use one of those. My W/M + a White Knight spin dryer + the Meaco do a couple of washes at one time easily, and the boat is dry even in winter.

If space is tight you need a freezer more than a fridge - with a freezer you always get a fridge for free, one way or another: either by internal spillover or with freezer packs transferred across. There are expensive or cheap solutions.

Get a hot plate of some kind so you can cook electric when you're hooked up to shorepower. Or if you have a genny or big battery system. Most single hotplates of the camping kind are too weak and slow, however - I got an NJ double infra-red one off Amazon, it is super powerful and didn't cost too many fun tickets. It can be installed in a worktop or also used standalone on top of a worktop, it's self-contained and has rubber feet fitted. I've had too many problems with single camping -style hotplates.

I also use a halogen oven as it's so fast compared to any other kind, gas or mains. You can do a roast chicken & veg in it so it's big enough unless you want to do a turkey. Draws 1.2kW.

Never use butane (blue containers), always propane (orange) - it's too cold in the UK out of season for butane, which loses its heating power as the temperature drops.

Get vacuum seal bags for your clothes, off Amazon, I recommend the Viridescent brand, a 5-pack, they're big enough to take a duvet and work fine (some of these bags have problems); and a small 700W vacuum cleaner - an el cheapo out of Tesco is just fine. That way your clothes stay bone dry winter/summer and you have a proper way to hoover up. You will probably need to install a calorifier - a hot water heater that runs off mains power and/or the engine coolant.

If you fancy living at anchor then make sure to get the biggest anchor you can afford, not what the clever marketing says. One of the new style types such as Spade / Rocna / Manson, 50% oversize. You won't appreciate why until a windy night when your anchor drags, which will be about the biggest scare of their life for most people. All anchor sellers under-specify on the size to make their anchors appear to be more effective, so don't believe their fairy tales. You want lots of chain on the bottom and a big, new-pattern anchor.

For connectivity you can get an unlimited data deal on a 4G phone for very little now, and tether it with a USB cable to your laptop. I've used a dongle @ £15/m- too expensive for the low speed, too little data; a 100GB data deal on a cheap phone @ £19/m tethered; and currently unlimited data/calls/texts on a new Galaxy phone for £27/m from 3co. That's good enough for full-time work on the web, Skype calls etc. Don't use Skype for meetings, use Google Meet, the quality is better (they host it instead of you on your device). Some use Zoom but it needs the latest of everything to work.

Much of this stuff transfers boat to boat so it's not a loss when you trade up. You want a boat that has good headroom or you'll go nuts; warm and dry in the winter; electric cooking for when you can use it; and ground tackle that club sailors laugh at and ask if it's for the Titanic. That way you'll be happy as a bug in a rug, even in an English January.

Boat insulation is a whole topic in and of itself, you'll no doubt get into that later :)
 
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