Kicker using all low friction rings

[Channel Sailor]

Maybe we have all seen the low friction ring tackles on the Jeanneau 3300s and probably on other boats as well.

Has anyone converted on older mid sized yachts the old kicker tackle to remove those bulky blocks and instead use all low friction rings with D12 or similar for a zero stretch solution?

was it a good result? Worth doing? Did you splice a easier on the hands end on the cockpit end(s) If the line?

 

[Wing Mark]

I bought a used dinghy just before lockdown.
It had some LFR's on it.
They were very trendy, must-have bling about 5 years ago.
Some are already worn out and I've replaced them with various proper ball bearing blocks from my spares box.
Others are working great and give a neat and tidy solution. Much better than having a block banging on the gelcoat in many situations!

With dinghy sized rope, we 'taper' control lines, i.e. remove the cover where it's not handled, leaving a thin low friction dyneema core running through small blocks or LFRs.
Corrosion can be a problem where damp salty rope is left against metal during the week. Any metal inc 'stainless'.
Rope life can be short too if it's bent through 180 degrees and moved a lot.

D12 is not 'zero' stretch. But then, do we really want a zero stretch kicker, or is a bit of stretch when a gust hits more often a 'good thing'?

I've found that systems which work well are down to the detail and getting it right is more subtle than swapping out blocks for LFRs or v/v.
What is your current kicker? If it's double or triple blocks, changing to a cascade might be good? But that needs to be done right, because the travel can be limited in either direction. I changed a sail and found I couldn't get enough slack in the kicker any more....

 

[Channel Sailor]

zero stretch, or very little, was a concern of mine. A little give might be a good thing when Gybing.

On a 21 squ metre mainsail I have: for the lower 4 to 1 a pair of quite chunky plain bearing double blocks, one with a becket all roved with marlow braid (probably 8mm) going back to a spinlock PXR0810 (200kg rated) by the cockpit. Then from the shackle on the top block is a Liros hi tech type 8mm(? or could be 6mm) which turns on a large ish old single plain bearing block (but probably not strong enough) then back down to mast base, making it 8 to 1. The smallest sheave in the system is a 28mm deck tidy block The other sheaves are just oversized for 8mm line, so ok there for friction.

It appears to have just a little give in it, but I could do with more purchase or Less friction. It all looks heavy and bulky but just about does the job.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have them on my 34 M2 mainsail; set up as a cascade system. However, the last turn on the mast base is a block & there is another small pulley giving an extra 2:1 pulling on the dynema tail on the deck which has a light non dynema line. This is just before the winch & effectively doubles the purchase power. It works well & I do adjust it when sailing. Not just ram it in & forget.
Because it is cascade, the lengths have to be arranged carefully to allow the boom to be scandalised sufficiently for reefing etc & still not so long that it cannot be fully tensioned when under way. With a normal pulley system one just lets more line out

 

[Neeves]

Maybe we have all seen the low friction ring tackles on the Jeanneau 3300s and probably on other boats as well.

Has anyone converted on older mid sized yachts the old kicker tackle to remove those bulky blocks and instead use all low friction rings with D12 or similar for a zero stretch solution?

was it a good result? Worth doing? Did you splice a easier on the hands end on the cockpit end(s) If the line?

I was passing and thought I'd comment

I stand to be corrected

Most LFRs are made from anodised 7075 aluminium. The anodising can be worn and 7075 aluminium is not the best in a marine environment, it can corrode spectacularly (unless the anodising remains intact). In some applications LFRs are a stunning success in others, where there is abrasion, less spectacular - but if you are prepared to replace (bottomless pockets) - not an issue.

I 'retired' from racing some years ago (finite pockets) - unless you are prepared to save weight, so dry sail, and bulk throughout all the yacht (to maximise performance) - I'd stick with blocks. To me using them is all about the psychological advantage - you, as owner, watch the detail you are a contender.

If I still seriously raced - I'd use them. If you race to have a few hours with mates - don't bother - just enjoy

Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

I was passing and thought I'd comment
I stand to be corrected
Most LFRs are made from anodised 7075 aluminium. The anodising can be worn and 7075 aluminium is not the best in a marine environment, it can corrode spectacularly (unless the anodising remains intact). In some applications LFRs are a stunning success in others, where there is abrasion, less spectacular - but if you are prepared to replace (bottomless pockets) - not an issue.
I 'retired' from racing some years ago (finite pockets) - unless you are prepared to save weight, so dry sail, and bulk throughout all the yacht (to maximise performance) - I'd stick with blocks. To me using them is all about the psychological advantage - you, as owner, watch the detail you are a contender.
If I still seriously raced - I'd use them. If you race to have a few hours with mates - don't bother - just enjoy
Jonathan

I am not in agreement with you on this one because of my own findings ( bit like which anchor really )
The rings on a kicking strap do not actually involve a lot of rope movement. Unlike, say a sheet or barber hauler system on a race boat. Therefore, the anodising will not wear in the same way. (There will be slight movement back & forth in use once loaded up of a couple of mm - I accept that) I have both the backstay & the kicker fitted with the rings. I adjust the backstay several times in a typical journey so that does mean the rings get more friction. It makes neater setups rather than thick ropes with heavy pullies etc. So in my opinion has advantages.
So far- over 8-9 years of use- I have not had to change any rings.I have not seen any wear & the set ups come off at the end of each season for storage & checking.

 

[Ingwe]

I can't see switching to LFR's on a kicker producing a measurable increase in performance on anything but an ultra lightweight dinghy, however if the blocks on your kicker are coming to the end of their life and need changing anyway and you are good at splicing then replacing with LFR's will undoubtedly be a fair bit cheaper - with the slight caveat that it will take a lot longer to do all the splicing etc than it would do to just change the blocks....

 

[dunedin]

Not sure I would bother switching unless the old blocks are end of life. But like Daydream Believer, we have a cascade system on the kicker with LFR, except for one turning block at the base of mast. All works well and no corrosion after 10 years use.

 

[Channel Sailor]

Interesting, thank you for the ideas. The top block under the boom does need replacing, but the doubles are fine. My kicker I reckon would take a long time to wear off anodising. Offshore downwind for weeks on end then yes it could happen. But for weekend around the cans short races its use is fairly short and when it is on it is firm and not rubbing that much. Maybe I will look at ideas to either:install an extra cascade at the top using LFR. Then leave the 4:1 at the bottom as is. Or re rove the existing with a D12 or similar, then add an extra purchase on the deck with a handy sized line.

Good point made about all the splicing and fiddling about to get the lengths just right, I have plenty of other jobs to do.

Thank you.

 

[Neeves]

I have access to Practical Sailor's locked publications and don't know if you can access this article

Sizing Up Improvements In Low Friction Rings - Practical Sailor

Jonathan