J/111 - SF3600 IRC Rating

[wannabeeskipper]

I am surprised by the difference in IRC Ratings between the J/111 and the Sun Fast 3600. The J/111 seems to rate 1.08 - 1.1 and the SF3600 1.03 - 1.05. Does anyone know the main IRC differentiators between the two? And is there the same sort of difference under other rating systems?

 

[flaming]

I am surprised by the difference in IRC Ratings between the J/111 and the Sun Fast 3600. The J/111 seems to rate 1.08 - 1.1 and the SF3600 1.03 - 1.05. Does anyone know the main IRC differentiators between the two? And is there the same sort of difference under other rating systems?

J111 is significantly lighter and sets significantly more sail area. It’s also narrower. J111 was not designed with IRC in mind though, and isn’t the most competitive racing under IRC. J launched the 112 for that role, and that rates about the same as the 3600.
With the breeze up and a downwind course though… The 111 is the boat you would want to be on…

 

[wannabeeskipper]

J111 is significantly lighter and sets significantly more sail area. It’s also narrower. J111 was not designed with IRC in mind though, and isn’t the most competitive racing under IRC. J launched the 112 for that role, and that rates about the same as the 3600.
With the breeze up and a downwind course though… The 111 is the boat you would want to be on…

This was really helpful - a bit more research suggests that the J/111 hull is designed to plane, whereas the J/112 hull is not. It seems that IRC heavily penalises planing hulls, whereas US-based ORC/PHRF are happy for builders to make the boat go fast, whatever it takes!

 

[flaming]

That’s a bit simplistic… IRC, historically, has penalised planing in smaller boats. This seems to be gradually changing. In that both the 112 and SF3600 will plane, though the 3600 more readily. Boats like the JPK range and the newer Sunfast 3300 will definitely plane given enough breeze, and to everyone’s surprise the cape 31, which really is a sports boat, is competitive on IRC.
There’s a lot more in why the 111 isn’t especially favoured under IRC, but to be fair, they do win under IRC.
In fact 2 J111 and 2 SF3600 are in IRC1 for Dartmouth week that starts on Thursday. Forecast is light, but should be interesting results for you.

 

[Birdseye]

IRC, historically, has penalised planing in smaller boats.

Do they "pena;lise" or just try to put every boat on an equal footing. I cant see any reason why IRC would want to knobble one kind of boat.

 

[wannabeeskipper]

In fact 2 J111 and 2 SF3600 are in IRC1 for Dartmouth week that starts on Thursday. Forecast is light, but should be interesting results for you.

Excellent, I shall take a look.

 

[flaming]

Do they "pena;lise" or just try to put every boat on an equal footing. I cant see any reason why IRC would want to knobble one kind of boat.

No they did overly penalise planing boats in smaller sizes for a long time.
One of IRC’s key aims is “protecting the existing fleet”. In other words making sure that the boats already being sailed weren’t suddenly made obsolete by a new design. Which is laudable, but some argue held back racing boat design. It’s certainly true that it made it nearly impossible for any new sports boat in the 25-35 foot range to gain any traction in the UK.

 

[RJJ]

No they did overly penalise planing boats in smaller sizes for a long time.
One of IRC’s key aims is “protecting the existing fleet”. In other words making sure that the boats already being sailed weren’t suddenly made obsolete by a new design. Which is laudable, but some argue held back racing boat design. It’s certainly true that it made it nearly impossible for any new sports boat in the 25-35 foot range to gain any traction in the UK.

Do people actually like handicap racing?

Not being deliberately obtuse, but I just don't find this sort of conversation interesting. As in, of course talking about boats is interesting and comparing them as an academic exercise is all very well....but wouldn't you rather talk about the skill of the skipper/crew, the great start they got to deliver the preferred strategy, the lovely tactics at the leeward mark? Which in my experience characterise one-design bar chat from Lasers up to Farr 40s.

So much of handicap racing is "my rating is tough" or "your boat rates better in today's conditions. Or "what boat should I buy to be competitive, and how long might that last until the rule gets tweaked again?".

Do you guys really enjoy this?

Or is there potential for sailors to organise ourselves better, choose and populate a smaller number of OD classes, and build strong class associations to give the builders a moderately hard time so owners get value, quality and longevity? In my imaginary world we would have an attainable sports boat (J80 style), a flst-out sports boat (Melges style), a 35 footer (J109 or so) and a 45 footer (can't think of anything). The association should own the design and invite tenders for a seven-year builder's franchise. We should aspire to a twenty-five or thirty year lifespan for the class, or more. We'd all have more fun for less money.

My opinion. Is it shared?

 

[flaming]

Do people actually like handicap racing?

Not being deliberately obtuse, but I just don't find this sort of conversation interesting. As in, of course talking about boats is interesting and comparing them as an academic exercise is all very well....but wouldn't you rather talk about the skill of the skipper/crew, the great start they got to deliver the preferred strategy, the lovely tactics at the leeward mark? Which in my experience characterise one-design bar chat from Lasers up to Farr 40s.

So much of handicap racing is "my rating is tough" or "your boat rates better in today's conditions. Or "what boat should I buy to be competitive, and how long might that last until the rule gets tweaked again?".

Do you guys really enjoy this?

Or is there potential for sailors to organise ourselves better, choose and populate a smaller number of OD classes, and build strong class associations to give the builders a moderately hard time so owners get value, quality and longevity? In my imaginary world we would have an attainable sports boat (J80 style), a flst-out sports boat (Melges style), a 35 footer (J109 or so) and a 45 footer (can't think of anything). The association should own the design and invite tenders for a seven-year builder's franchise. We should aspire to a twenty-five or thirty year lifespan for the class, or more. We'd all have more fun for less money.

My opinion. Is it shared?

Of course OD is preferred.

But the issue is simply persuading high net worth individuals to all buy the same thing.

And of course persuading a dozen high quality boat manufacturers to cease to exist for the common good…

Handicap racing has a place, and most of the time it’s the only game in town.

 

[flaming]

Also worth saying that in boats over about 30 foot long, being competitive in handicap racing is often a lot more accessible and cheaper than OD. You can win races under IRC in 20 year olds boats. You’ll need to spend a lot more to be competitive in the J109 fleet for example.

 

[Laser310]

Do people actually like handicap racing?

I have owned many one design boats from dinghies to keel boats in the low 30ft range.

once you get above the mid 30ft range, it is very difficult to make OD work.

There have been a few that worked - I sailed a lot in the J/44 fleet in the USA. That fleet even had a set of class-owned sails for one design regattas. Farr 40, Swan 42, Swan 45 are other good examples.

all of those are basically done.

So, if you want to do any ocean racing in boats bigger than say 40 or 45ft, you are stuck with handicaps or ratings.

IRC is explicitly type-forming - they are not trying to rate boats "fairly".., they are trying to encourage design features that they like by rating those features favourably, and by rating features they don't like unfavourably.

 

[RJJ]

Of course OD is preferred.

But the issue is simply persuading high net worth individuals to all buy the same thing.

And of course persuading a dozen high quality boat manufacturers to cease to exist for the common good…

Handicap racing has a place, and most of the time it’s the only game in town.

Agree with point 1, "herding cats". But was it ever tried...? All the OD classes are manufacturer rather than customer / association led.

Don't agree with point 2. You don't need to persuade manufacturers to cease to exist. You just need to make them work in the interest of customers. Since, as you say, OD is preferred (by sailors). My observation, on this thread specifically, is that the world of sailing (for customers) is enhanced by the J109, but that subsequent models of the same size are a detractor. Ditto the J80 - a great boat, attainable for OD racing; why the J70?

You can win races under IRC in 20 year olds boats. You’ll need to spend a lot more to be competitive in the J109 fleet for

Don't agree. The J80 was in the late 2000s just reaching a stage where meaningful numbers of secondhand boats were available at a really affordable price; some of which were getting decent results. Any of which could have won in the right hands. Bad business for J, great for sailors. Who pays for the marketing, sets the strategy, makes the decisions? Enter the J70. Thanks. Hey, you wouldn't wanna be stuck being the last J80 owner in the non-existent fleet.

Likewise the RS600, instead of being killed off by the RS700, saw a resurgence of interest as the 10-15yo boats became available and affordable. Suddenly you had 30-40 boats at random open meetings. But again the association / manufacturer focussed all attention, marketing, events on the new boat. I was a stalwart racer in both terrific boats; I loved both but I think the main advantage of the 700 was to Nick Peters' wallet.

Many of us on here could take most 15-20 yo J109s and make them competitive for new sails plus 10k or so for a polish ( remembering that a strong OD association and circuit keeps up the resale value; further depreciation would be minimal).

And you wouldn't have to headscratch about exactly which IRC design to choose, or what sail wardrobe to optimise for which particular race or series.

 

[flaming]

That’s what I mean about asking manufacturers to go out of business though… J didn’t bring out the 70 to be contrary, they did it because they weren’t selling 80s any more. If they’d still been selling 80s, they wouldn’t have spent the money developing the 70.
Ditto the 111. Launched at the time that 109 sales dried up.

 

[mrming]

Do people actually like handicap racing?

Not being deliberately obtuse, but I just don't find this sort of conversation interesting. As in, of course talking about boats is interesting and comparing them as an academic exercise is all very well....but wouldn't you rather talk about the skill of the skipper/crew, the great start they got to deliver the preferred strategy, the lovely tactics at the leeward mark? Which in my experience characterise one-design bar chat from Lasers up to Farr 40s.

So much of handicap racing is "my rating is tough" or "your boat rates better in today's conditions. Or "what boat should I buy to be competitive, and how long might that last until the rule gets tweaked again?".

Do you guys really enjoy this?

Or is there potential for sailors to organise ourselves better, choose and populate a smaller number of OD classes, and build strong class associations to give the builders a moderately hard time so owners get value, quality and longevity? In my imaginary world we would have an attainable sports boat (J80 style), a flst-out sports boat (Melges style), a 35 footer (J109 or so) and a 45 footer (can't think of anything). The association should own the design and invite tenders for a seven-year builder's franchise. We should aspire to a twenty-five or thirty year lifespan for the class, or more. We'd all have more fun for less money.

My opinion. Is it shared?

As a kid I was wedged into the companionway of my parents’ half tonner 2 or 3 times a week. Since then I’ve raced in CHS, then IRC events for 25+ years.
Plenty has been said about the many downsides of handicap racing. Here are some of the upsides as I see them.

• If you’re a boat geek, it’s fun to see 30 or 40 years’ worth of designs tricked out and racing.
• You can study the results across lots of events, see what designs typically do well in your likely conditions, and get one of those. Or take a chance on a design you have a hunch might rate well and optimise it.
• Prepping the boat and optimising it to the rating is part of the challenge. You’re racing the rule as well as your competitors.
• Different designs do better in different conditions, so more competitors get a chance of a win.
• As said above, an older design can be very competitive which can be (relatively) cost effective.

There are plenty of examples of well prepared and optimised boats, well sailed, who win handicap races consistently. It’s more complicated than one design of course, but, assuming the ratings in the class are within a reasonably narrow band, those wins are likely deserved.

Where it does all fall apart is in smaller club racing situations where dissimilar boats are being rated against each other. In those cases you can’t take the results too seriously. ?

 

[RJJ]

As a kid I was wedged into the companionway of my parents’ half tonner 2 or 3 times a week. Since then I’ve raced in CHS, then IRC events for 25+ years.
Plenty has been said about the many downsides of handicap racing. Here are some of the upsides as I see them.

• If you’re a boat geek, it’s fun to see 30 or 40 years’ worth of designs tricked out and racing.
• You can study the results across lots of events, see what designs typically do well in your likely conditions, and get one of those. Or take a chance on a design you have a hunch might rate well and optimise it.
• Prepping the boat and optimising it to the rating is part of the challenge. You’re racing the rule as well as your competitors.
• Different designs do better in different conditions, so more competitors get a chance of a win.
• As said above, an older design can be very competitive which can be (relatively) cost effective.

There are plenty of examples of well prepared and optimised boats, well sailed, who win handicap races consistently. It’s more complicated than one design of course, but, assuming the ratings in the class are within a reasonably narrow band, those wins are likely deserved.

Where it does all fall apart is in smaller club racing situations where dissimilar boats are being rated against each other. In those cases you can’t take the results too seriously. ?

Fair enough, you actually like this sort of thing ?

I'm just thinking there's a different business model here for racing yacht builders. In economics, we'd call it a coordination failure - many of the customers would want to coordinate, the builders are doing ok on their current business models. Just imagine if we had a hundred J80s instead of 40-odd J70s at Cowes Week; some would buy new, I'd be in there with the boat I could afford, the parties would be great, we'd attract more young people, there would be more interest and commercial clout Vs the supermaxis and all that....J would still sell a few new boats, just as Laser still sell new Lasers when there are tens of thousands of totally competitive secondhand ones....

 

[DFL1010]

To be fair, there are quite a few classes where that sort of thing goes on, for example the Flying Fifteen. A few hundred will get you on the water, a couple of grand will get you a 'good enough for club racing' example, all the way up to twenty-ish for a brand spankers one (and I hear at least Ovi's are going to be busy next year). Same can be said of Solos, Finns, 505s etc.

Not sure if it's to do with there being several builders available that helps, or maybe size. I don't think I could get another builder to make me a J111 that I could rock up and race. However, look at the right old muddle the Etchells class is in with the M11, there's something to be said for not.

 

[RJJ]

To be fair, there are quite a few classes where that sort of thing goes on, for example the Flying Fifteen. A few hundred will get you on the water, a couple of grand will get you a 'good enough for club racing' example, all the way up to twenty-ish for a brand spankers one (and I hear at least Ovi's are going to be busy next year). Same can be said of Solos, Finns, 505s etc.

Not sure if it's to do with there being several builders available that helps, or maybe size. I don't think I could get another builder to make me a J111 that I could rock up and race. However, look at the right old muddle the Etchells class is in with the M11, there's something to be said for not.

Again, to do with a class association that owns the design, sets the rules, organises the events; and owners that remain committed to close racing in fifty-year-old designs rather than chasing a faster ride.

Whether you have many competing builders or, per my idea, a single builder periodically appointed by the association, is the slight difference, but in either case the point is OD racing on terms set by the customer not the manufacturer.

 

[DFL1010]

Well, it can't be that simple. Counter-examples are the RS fleet, which is still going strong, and the aforementioned Etchells having a bit of an internal struggle.

 

[Birdseye]

Do people actually like handicap racing?

Not being deliberately obtuse, but I just don't find this sort of conversation interesting. As in, of course talking about boats is interesting and comparing them as an academic exercise is all very well....but wouldn't you rather talk about the skill of the skipper/crew, the great start they got to deliver the preferred strategy, the lovely tactics at the leeward mark? Which in my experience characterise one-design bar chat from Lasers up to Farr 40s.

So much of handicap racing is "my rating is tough" or "your boat rates better in today's conditions. Or "what boat should I buy to be competitive, and how long might that last until the rule gets tweaked again?".

Do you guys really enjoy this?

Or is there potential for sailors to organise ourselves better, choose and populate a smaller number of OD classes, and build strong class associations to give the builders a moderately hard time so owners get value, quality and longevity? In my imaginary world we would have an attainable sports boat (J80 style), a flst-out sports boat (Melges style), a 35 footer (J109 or so) and a 45 footer (can't think of anything). The association should own the design and invite tenders for a seven-year builder's franchise. We should aspire to a twenty-five or thirty year lifespan for the class, or more. We'd all have more fun for less money.

My opinion. Is it shared?

I dont think that "like" comes into it for most people. They have budgets. There is the question of the availability of one design fleets. Much racing outside the hot spots like the solent has to be on the basis of "run what you brung" as the yanks put it.

And even in one design fleets I am damn sure that many skippers look for the sneaky advantages they can buy or the rules they can bend or even cheat on and get away with it. Then there will be the rich guys who buy their pots by hiring hot shot professional sailors.

No getting round the fact that to some people winning is everything.

But you are right in one sense - there is no possible handicap system that will be equally fair to a mix of boats in all conditions. Mind you I remember sitting round a table with the regular racers from my club when NHC was announced. Every member of the fleet reckoned that his boat would be disadvantaged by the new system.

 

[flaming]

Again, to do with a class association that owns the design, sets the rules, organises the events; and owners that remain committed to close racing in fifty-year-old designs rather than chasing a faster ride.

The designs might be 50 years old, but the boats at national championships etc certainly aren't. With the costs involved in dinghies or small keelboats it is feasible that owners who are committed to the class will have been through multiple hulls in the time period that most yacht sailors would own one boat. And that if you are reasonably competitive, buying a new hull when yours is losing its edge remains financially viable.... Nothing kills a yacht OD faster than 5 year old hulls not being able to beat new ones.
It's also the case that keen dinghy sailors often own and actively sail in more than 1 class... Not often the case with yachts....

Then you have the issue that an OD dinghy or small keelboat has only 1 main use - OD racing on short courses. Yachts can have a number of different uses, and the 2nd owner may have a different idea from the 1st. Classic case in point is the J109. Most of the original owners in the UK were keen on short course racing. I remember going to a nationals with 40 boats on the line, fantastic racing. But after 8-10 years those owners were moving on and a lot of the next generation of owners weren't interested in short course racing and bought them to go offshore racing, or cruising. So the short course racing fleet is much dwindled. So those owners who are still in the 109 fleet but want short course racing.... What should they do? Accept the new norm of 6 boats on the line or look for the next boat that might get a bigger fleet? Or go IRC racing...

In a way, this is one of the very interesting things about the Cape 31 that's gaining traction. Nobody is going to look at those boats in 5 years time and think it might be a good offshore ride, or a good fast cruiser. Yes they're rather expensive now, but if the class gets to a critical mass it may well be that reasonably cheap boats will be available and there will be only one reason to buy those boats.
But then in 10 years time you either have a finite number of hulls, or the issue that old hulls aren't competitive with new ones.... So remaining competitive just becomes a chequebook issue and the class dies.

And then in 30 years time people find the hulls going for a song on Ebay and someone in a particular location starts persuading people to buy them up and a small local fleet forms... See hunter 707 for example...