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iveco nef Vs cummins qsb

mickyspec

New member
Joined
18 Oct 2009
Messages
15
hi there lads
just wondering , as ive seen some "experts" claim that these engines share the same base motor.
can anyone here comment on these motors in real world terms.
the iveco seems well priced in the 370 /420 hp range

thanks in advance
mike
 

volvopaul

Well-known member
Joined
1 Apr 2007
Messages
8,266
Location
midlands
Im sure latestarter of this forum will be along to give a 100% answer, but I know the qsb base engine is the old 6bt block with common rail tech, which as im aware the iveco is a truck base unit from the 8016 era, latestarter will have a chuckle im sure of you thinking there from the same family, how the yanks and Italians get on im not sure?
 

Latestarter1

New member
Joined
6 Feb 2008
Messages
2,733
Location
Somerset
hi there lads
just wondering , as ive seen some "experts" claim that these engines share the same base motor.
can anyone here comment on these motors in real world terms.
the iveco seems well priced in the 370 /420 hp range

thanks in advance
mike
Simple answer is there isn't one.

I was a member of the group grandly called the EEA or European Engine Alliance which created the 'Family'.

First a short history lesson. During the early 1980's IVECO realised that their whole engine range required replacement, a huge undertaking. Replacing the big ugly V8 down to the 1 liter/cyl 8030/40/60 engines. IVECO signed an agreement with Nissan for a complete range of engines. All went well for several years, 8/10/13 liter engines were progressing well, however the smaller unit injector 1 liter/cylinder motor was not meeting design goals.

With very little time left IVECO turned to Cummins.

In the meantime Cummins had their own problems, having made a huge mid life investment in the turning the successful B and C mid range engines into a four valve electronic engine range. The four valve the 'Emerald' program resulted in the in the front gear drive Bosch VP 44 quasi electronic ISB engine. A shed load more cost without very much gain.

IVECO by chance were gifted a little gem. Ford wanted out of their loss making tractor business and sold Ford New Holland to Fiat. Ford had some super guys designing high pressure pumps who had come up with a very simple a clever fuel lubricated common rail fuel injection pump. Fiat dumped this new pump onto their sister company Marrelli.

Marelli KNEW that Bosch were in deep trouble with their oil lubricated CP2 common rail fuel pump, too late, too expensive and unreliable. When offered the original Ford concept pump they bit the hand off the italians. Part of the agreement was that Fiat had control of who the new pump could be sold to.

The EEA brought together engineers from Cummins UK and US, IVECO and Ford New Holland. Using the ISB engine as design base around the new common rail pump the team working from rented offices in High Wycombe worked at speed. 102/120 bore stroke cam location, 4 valve cylinder head was retained, everything else was torn up.

New engine had the timing gears moved from from the front to the back, cooling capability upgraded, lube oil system changed to J jet piston cooling nozzles.

Fiat carried out a lighting strike on Case tractor who were building the B Series in Germany and scooped up the bang up to date production line and machine tools.

The final result of the EEA work was the ISBe automotive engine built by Cummins in Darlington and the Italian IVECO NEF engine. Very similar engines, however IVECO use Bosch Hardware/software, Cummins used Bosch ECU with Cummins software and slightly different common rail set up.

Shortly after launch of NEF engine IVECO Aifo took the automotive engine and marinised it.

After just a year tensions between Cummins and IVECO began to smoulder when the Italians failed to pay agreed licence fees.

The Cummins QSB marine engine is based on a US designed engine which came out of the EEA work but based on the ISB (new generation) engine sold to Dodge for the Ram truck, 300,000 units per annum. This engine has the timing gear where Americans like it, back on the front!

At the time of the ISBe launch Ricardo in the UK did a research progam an unspecified customer, I suspect the MOD and in 2003 they had developed a twin turbo ISBe 5.9 reliably producing 500 Hp much of this work was banked for the eventual use in the QSB marine engine.

My biased view of the IVECO NEF.....

Marinisation of a truck engine is a nightmare. Take a look at the raw water pump, Remove the charge cooler in order to change the impeller, simply nuts! This pump is also proprietry, not Jabso, Johnson or Sherwood, try to obtaining price for new pump. Electronics are more than a bit clunky, very poor noise supression algorithim.

Biggest beef, Mickey Mouse 25C test fuel spec dodgy sheet power, when will they ever learn.

When the split came Cummins knew how to obtain more displacement out of the ISB/QSB without weakening major components. Then patented the redesign

IVECO 6.7, 5.9 102mm bore block bored out to 104mm, crank pin offset ground to reduce diameter but increase stroke by 10mm to 132mm.

Cummins 6.7, new block allowing 107mm bore plus service oversize, crank retaining original bearing areas with clever change to balance weights allowing 124 mm stroke without kissing the camshaft.

IVECO NEF motors are around 20% less expensive than equivalent Cummins, but they out sell IVECO by a significant margin............
 
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mickyspec

New member
Joined
18 Oct 2009
Messages
15
Simple answer is there isn't one.

I was a member of the group grandly called the EEA or European Engine Alliance which created the 'Family'.

First a short history lesson. During the early 1980's IVECO realised that their whole engine range required replacement, a huge undertaking. Replacing the big ugly V8 down to the 1 liter/cyl 8030/40/60 engines. IVECO signed an agreement with Nissan for a complete range of engines. All went well for several years, 8/10/13 liter engines were progressing well, however the smaller unit injector 1 liter/cylinder motor was not meeting design goals.

With very little time left IVECO turned to Cummins.

In the meantime Cummins had their own problems, having made a huge mid life investment in the turning the successful B and C mid range engines into a four valve electronic engine range. The fou
r valve the 'Emerald' program resulted in the in the front gear drive Bosch VP 44 quasi electronic ISB engine. A shed load more cost without very much gain.

IVECO by chance were gifted a little gem. Ford wanted out of their loss making tractor business and sold Ford New Holland to Fiat. Ford had some super guys designing high pressure pumps who had come up with a very simple a clever fuel lubricated common rail fuel injection pump. Fiat dumped this new pump onto their sister company Marrelli.

Marelli KNEW that Bosch were in deep trouble with their oil lubricated CP2 common rail fuel pump, too late, too expensive and unreliable. When offered the original Ford concept pump they bit the hand off the italians hand off. Part of the agreement was that Fiat had control of who the new pump could be sold to.

The EEA brought together engineers from Cummins UK and US, IVECO and Ford New Holland. Using the ISB engine as design base around the new common rail pump the team working from rented offices in High Wycombe worked at speed. 102/120 bore stroke cam location, 4 valve cylinder head was retained, everything else was torn up.

New engine had the timing gears moved from from the front to the back, cooling capability upgraded, lube oil system changed to J jet piston cooling nozzles.

Fiat carried out a lighting strike on Case tractor who were building the B Series in Germany and scooped up the bang up to date production line and machine tools.

The final result of the EEA work was the ISBe automotive engine built by Cummins in Darlington and the Italian IVECO NEF engine. Very similar engines, however IVECO use Bosch Hardware/software, Cummins used Bosch ECU with Cummins software and slightly different common rail set up.

Shortly after launch of NEF engine IVECO Aifo took the automotive engine and marinised it.

After just a year tensions between Cummins and IVECO began to smoulder when the Italians failed to pay agreed licence fees.

The Cummins QSB marine engine is based on a US designed engine which came out of the EEA work but based on the ISB (new generation) engine sold to Dodge for the Ram truck, 300,000 units per annum. This engine has the timing gear where Americans like it, back on the front!

At the time of the ISBe launch Ricardo in the UK did a research progam an unspecified customer, I suspect the MOD and in 2003 they had developed a twin turbo ISBe 5.9 reliably producing 500 Hp much of this work was banked for the eventual use in the QSB marine engine.

My biased view of the IVECO NEF.....

Marinisation of a truck engine is a nightmare. Take a look at the raw water pump, Remove the charge cooler in order to change the impeller, simply nuts! This pump is also proprietry, not Jabso, Johnson or Sherwood, try to obtaning price for new pump. Electronics are more than a bit clunky, very poor noise supression algorithim.

Biggest beef, Mickey Mouse 25C test fuel spec dodgy sheet power, when will they ever learn.

When the split came Cummins knew how to obtain more displacement out of the ISB/QSB without weakening major components. Then patented the redesign

IVECO 6.7, 5.9 102mm bore block bored out to 104mm, crank pin offset ground to reduce diameter but increase stroke by 10mm to 132mm.

Cummins 6.7, new block allowing 107mm bore plus service oversize, crank retaining original bearing areas with clever change to balance weights allowing 124 mm stroke without kissing the camshaft.

IVECO NEF motors are around 20% less expensive than equivalent Cummins, but they out sell IVECO by a significant margin............

Wow sir ,thank you so much for your very detailed reply.
Given cummins market share and proven reiability
The Qsb certainly needs closer scrutiny
Thanks so much
Mike
 

vas

Well-known member
Joined
21 Jun 2011
Messages
6,718
Location
Volos-Athens
LS,

ever thought of getting a blog up or some sort of way of communicating all (or part anyway!) of your knowledge to the general public?

could make for excellent reading!

alternetively I should start searching the forum for your posts and filing them appropriately ;)

cheers

V.
 

Latestarter1

New member
Joined
6 Feb 2008
Messages
2,733
Location
Somerset
Please stick to the posts where I am not too wound up or wound down with Aussie red!

Just to prove I am not being pickey. Take a look at the picture. Automotive engine with nice SAE accesory aperture on the rear gear drive, so lets plonk the raw water pump there. Guy doing the air handling design said thats a neat pipe run I will plonk my charge air cooler right there. Have either of these couch engineers been anywhere near a boat I very much doubt it.

I know I am paranoid about charge cooler servicing but ensuring it is done by making people rip it off just to get decent access to the water pump impeller is nuts as well as costing the customer.
 
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