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It's official we can now go sailing again!

greeny

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Joined
15 Jun 2004
Messages
1,313
Location
Portugal
Listen guys, does it matter where you are? If you are stupid and misbehave near to home you may contribute to the spread. If you misbehave 200 miles from home you may also spread the disease. The people affected change but the transmission rate impact doesn't. It's bad behaviour that spreads the desease not your location.
As for stopping at a service station and filling up with petrol, where is the risk? Clean your hands wipe the pump, pay by card, keep your distance. What else am I going to do along the way, breathe out of an open car window? Therefore I see the journey as low risk.
You'll be at more risk getting your shopping in Tesco or other shops or going to B and Q for the grow bags etc.
Work it out guys it's not too difficult.
Bluetack's already said some of this I know, I don't necessarily agree with all his comments although I understand his logic.
Hacker, if I come to Cornwall, behave sensibly with distancing and cleanliness standards, don't go near you or others, there is no greater risk to you.
The risk is when people misbehave and some of your locals will already be doing that I bet.
Someone who makes the journey after having considered the risks and options is probably more likely to follow the important guidelines than some of the members of your local population.
 
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greeny

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Joined
15 Jun 2004
Messages
1,313
Location
Portugal
True, but if it was the same report I saw then (a) it was two days after restrictions were lifted, which is nowhere soon enough to detect any effect and (b) it was cases, which is a useless as a comparator because it depends so much on who was tested and why.

We Scots will be watching the English NHS with interest over the next couple of weeks, though.
Yes, I don't know why she's complaining so much. the English are the guinea pigs in this if you look at it in that way. :)
 

GTom

Active member
Joined
12 Jun 2017
Messages
994
My son, who is a physio on a Covid ITU, buried one of his colleagues on Monday. She was only 30. STFAH. You might think the likelihood of being infected is low, but the impact can be horrendous.

Oh and Bluetack42. Keep away from Cornwall you aren't wanted!
Very sad story, my thoughts are with her family. However, she was definitely not infected by a boater spending his supper a cable off the beach at anchor. Regarding STAFH: did London stop all means of public transport? THERE you get a lot of contacts.

We could also completely ban cars to reduce the rate of accidents sometimes claiming very young lives...
 
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Bluetack42

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2020
Messages
38
My son, who is a physio on a Covid ITU, buried one of his colleagues on Monday. She was only 30. STFAH. You might think the likelihood of being infected is low, but the impact can be horrendous.

Oh and Bluetack42. Keep away from Cornwall you aren't wanted!
I am not quite sure what STFAH means, but suspect it may not be entirely welcoming? Hacker, I am sorry to hear of your loss, any death is tragic and I wholeheartedly agree with what I take to be your intent in raising the case, that a young death is even more tragic. Which is why we must keep this CV-19 pandemic in proportion, it has one redeeming feature that the median age of death is 80. However one of the consequences of the severe lockdown is that we are getting a surge in non ~Covid deaths with many more to come, as cancers go un diagnosed, heart attacks & stroke untreated & mental illness jumps. Unfortunately these deaths are of a much younger age group, time will tell if the cure has in fact been worse than the ill.

Your reaction to my hypothetical example was that you would prefer the infectious individual to not come to Cornwall to risk infection there but instead stay in their own area & infect their neighbors, build a wall at the Tamar Bridge! Will you still want to be so isolationist when a vaccine becomes available? Will you be happy for that to be widely distributed to the old & young in the big cities, but not sent west of your wall? Either we are one country all in this together or we are not? No one gets to have their cake & eat it, as our PM is discovering.
 

JumbleDuck

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Joined
8 Aug 2013
Messages
22,225
Location
SW Scotland
Your reaction to my hypothetical example was that you would prefer the infectious individual to not come to Cornwall to risk infection there but instead stay in their own area & infect their neighbors, build a wall at the Tamar Bridge! Will you still want to be so isolationist when a vaccine becomes available? Will you be happy for that to be widely distributed to the old & young in the big cities, but not sent west of your wall? Either we are one country all in this together or we are not? No one gets to have their cake & eat it, as our PM is discovering.
Perhaps the people of Cornwall will from now on turn down the £500m in subsidies to their county council which the despised rest of Britain gives every year. I won't hold my breath, because they have already demanded an extra £60m per annum to make up for lost EU funding. Cornwall voted solidly to leave the EU.
 

Mark-1

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Joined
22 Sep 2008
Messages
2,860
And what’s the problem about spreading CV-19 between regions?
I'm arguing we should probably do our best to make the strategy work on the basis that everyone following a less than perfect strategy is better than people chaotically doing when they think is best. Whether it's the right strategy is a completely different question and I bet there's a thread in the lounge for it!
 

coveman

Active member
Joined
10 Apr 2016
Messages
379
I am not quite sure what STFAH means, but suspect it may not be entirely welcoming? Hacker, I am sorry to hear of your loss, any death is tragic and I wholeheartedly agree with what I take to be your intent in raising the case, that a young death is even more tragic. Which is why we must keep this CV-19 pandemic in proportion, it has one redeeming feature that the median age of death is 80. However one of the consequences of the severe lockdown is that we are getting a surge in non ~Covid deaths with many more to come, as cancers go un diagnosed, heart attacks & stroke untreated & mental illness jumps. Unfortunately these deaths are of a much younger age group, time will tell if the cure has in fact been worse than the ill.

Your reaction to my hypothetical example was that you would prefer the infectious individual to not come to Cornwall to risk infection there but instead stay in their own area & infect their neighbors, build a wall at the Tamar Bridge! Will you still want to be so isolationist when a vaccine becomes available? Will you be happy for that to be widely distributed to the old & young in the big cities, but not sent west of your wall? Either we are one country all in this together or we are not? No one gets to have their cake & eat it, as our PM is discovering.
The whole point is that if infection rates get out of hand again ( ie the R value exceeds 1) which seems quite likely, then the NHS will be overwhelmed and back to treating CV-19 patients at the expense of treating cancers, heart attacks etc. The R value in the south west is already 0.76 (13.05.2020)so is at a critically high level.
It is proven beyond doubt that the lockdown has prevented the NHS being overwhelmed - the same applies to every other country in the world - restricted movement works.
My sympathy goes to Hacker's son who sees the damage the virus does first hand, has lost a valued colleague and spends his time nursing others rather than writing inane comments on this forum. I would add that my son has also lost a friend aged 32 who was physically fit and had no previous health issues to the virus.
 

GTom

Active member
Joined
12 Jun 2017
Messages
994
The whole point is that if infection rates get out of hand again ( ie the R value exceeds 1) which seems quite likely, then the NHS will be overwhelmed and back to treating CV-19 patients at the expense of treating cancers, heart attacks etc. The R value in the south west is already 0.76 (13.05.2020)so is at a critically high level.
It is proven beyond doubt that the lockdown has prevented the NHS being overwhelmed - the same applies to every other country in the world - restricted movement works.
My sympathy goes to Hacker's son who sees the damage the virus does first hand, has lost a valued colleague and spends his time nursing others rather than writing inane comments on this forum. I would add that my son has also lost a friend aged 32 who was physically fit and had no previous health issues to the virus.
If the sole purpose of the lockdown is "protecting the NHS" then it is missing the point. The months spent in lockdown should also be sufficient for the nation to learn how to operate during a biohazard situation ie. apply proper hygiene rules just as you learnt to stop at the red light while driving. Hygiene is not about being banned from the neighboring county/keeping you "at bay", it is about keeping your germs at bay.
 

Bluetack42

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2020
Messages
38
I'm arguing we should probably do our best to make the strategy work on the basis that everyone following a less than perfect strategy is better than people chaotically doing when they think is best. Whether it's the right strategy is a completely different question and I bet there's a thread in the lounge for it!
We can agree that when implementing public policy the ideal is a perfect strategy with full adherence, but with an imperfect strategy what’s best? Full (blind) adherence or a degree of chaos? I would argue for the latter, some of the non conformists will make matters worse, some better. This gives policy makers the opportunity to observe and improve so making the strategy better for all.

As far as this thread is concerned the strategy says I can drive 200 miles to my boat in Falmouth, polish it and then drive home again, every day for a week if I like, but I cannot sail up the Helford river and anchor for a week, does that make any sense to you?
 

Hacker

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4 Nov 2015
Messages
356
Location
Falmouth
Hi Bluetack42, STFAH as others might know is a strong message to stay at home (I’ll leave you to work out the F)

Personally I would rather no one caught Covid 19 and died. I worked for the NHS for 43 years and am very aware of the impacts of various viral epidemics, Flu and SARS for example. I’m also very familiar with death rates under usual conditions; typically 2000 per week on average and the failed flu vaccine of 2015 (I think) caused 28000 by itself. I’m not pushing a ‘stay at home and kill your neighbours rather than Cornwall’, I’m suggesting that any unnecessary contact has the potential to increase transmission rates. I’m also very aware that the non-CV death rates seem to have been increased by lockdown; it is a really difficult balance between stopping CV deaths v increasing non- CV deaths. I suspect we won’t know what the ideal balance would have been will be until much later.

I would also agree that the Govt strategy is a bit of a blunt instrument. Will sailing to the Helford by yourself (or with your household) increase the R rate? No. But unfortunately there have been many instances (all well reported) of instances where individuals or groups have been less than sensible.
 

Babylon

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Joined
7 Jan 2008
Messages
3,948
Location
Solent
My father recently told me a story: when in the early 1990s a friend of my parents told them that she had been diagnosed with advanced cancer, they expressed their sincere sorrow, to which the gentle lady, a school music teacher by then in her 60's, replied "Everyone has to die of something." She died.

At a similar time my mother died, also of cancer. Shortly afterwards I heard that my first girlfriend had died in her early 30s pregnant on her honeymoon (a congenital heart-defect). Then I heard that another girl I vaguely knew had died (killed in a road accident in Zimbabwe). Later I heard that the music teacher's youngest daughter had died (of something). Last year my uncle died of cancer. Another uncle died about fifteen years ago, also cancer. Three months ago my ex-wife's mother died of old age (she'd had more strokes over the decades than anyone could remember). Then, just as the Covid crisis was unfolding my gardener, a lovely man only a few years older than me, died of a sudden brain tumour.

In the meantime, everyone living has a life to lead, and this means getting as much of the population and the economy as possible back to as normal as possible as quickly as is feasible.

This includes being given "permission" to sleep the night on the b****y boat without being made to feel like a reckless murderer.

PS There was another story in today's paper about a Russian woman who survived the Spanish Flu and has just survived Covid! (I can only assume that she also survived the Revolution, the Civil War, Stalin's purges, the Second World War and the Gulag!)
 
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Graham376

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15 Apr 2018
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4,102
Location
Boat on Mooring off Faro, Home near Abergele
This includes being given "permission" to sleep the night on the b****y boat without being made to feel like a reckless murderer.
It's not so much about sleeping on a boat being a risk, it's more about trying to keep the idiots in check. One of the typical cases on evening news just now, police fined a couple who had traveled from Scotland to Snowdonia with camping gear - both countries are still in lock down.
 

Babylon

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7 Jan 2008
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Yes, that's pretty stupid given that Scotland has its own hills... but they didn't detour via any care homes I assume?
 

Seven Spades

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30 Aug 2003
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4,064
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Surrey
In spite of envy and temptation I think they're wrong. If people start staying away overnight many of them will be travelling long distances and spreading CV from region to region.

Staying overnight away from home feels like dropping litter or graffiti to me - one or two people can justify it on the basis it makes little difference. If 10pc of the population take that view it's a massive problem.
What makes you think that. I have driven 66 miles non-stop to my boat in the Hamble and back again on Saturday and then done the same thing on Sunday. So I have made 132 of unnecessary road miles for absolutely no reason. It didn't lead to spreading of the virus because I never stopped the way. If I had slept on my boat as opposed to working from 8-8 woudl not have increased the risk on infection to anyone. Instead I have had two 5am starts at the weekend for nothing.

Consider people go to their boats and spend a few nights onboard, they are much more likely to spread or catch the virus going to their local supermarket or park. The rules are mad they are without a doubt caused by the marine industry. We have to hope that the RYA can influence the government will relent as they did for fishermen. You can now camp on the banks for the Helford as a fisherman but you cannot anchor in the river - nuts.
 

Stemar

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12 Sep 2001
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14,285
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Home - Southampton, Boat - Gosport
It's not so much about sleeping on a boat being a risk, it's more about trying to keep the idiots in check. One of the typical cases on evening news just now, police fined a couple who had traveled from Scotland to Snowdonia with camping gear - both countries are still in lock down.
This is the point. People are selfish and stupid, and this is why there have to be rules. If everyone was sensible and drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions, we wouldn't need speed limits. Unfortunately rules never make sense around the edges. Is 30.1mph any more dangerous than 29.9? Of course not, but 60 almost certainly is. Of course it's possible to maintain social distancing on one's boat, but using the marina toilets? Ah, but my boat's on a mooring. OK you write the rules - you may get it right for yotties, but what about other activities? Of course I can maintain social distancing playing snooker, but bar billiards? where do you draw the line?
 

Mark-1

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22 Sep 2008
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2,860
So I have made 132 of unnecessary road miles for absolutely no reason.
You've driven 132 extra miles as part of a broad brush strategy to limit the spread of an infectious disease with rules intended to stop people travelling too far and too long from their front door.

We have to hope that the RYA can influence the government will relent as they did for fishermen.
...an exception for sailor would be lovely, but I see no reason why sailing would be picked out. If sailing why not wild camping or any of the thousands of other pursuits that could be excepted if we wanted a 7000 page wadge of legislation. (I'd argue we don't want that because it would take years to draft and none of us would read it all because it would be too long.)

More importantly, what is this exception for fishermen, it certainly isn't mentioned in the law. Does it allow them to sleep overnight away from home? I bet it doesn't. I suspect they can travel to fish for as long as they want including at night and then go home, in the same way you or I can sail for as long as we want including at night and then go home. What we (probably) can't legally do is go for a nice sail, and sleep somewhere nice overnight.

All academic because, if you're being sensible, it's perfectly possible to anchor/wild camp/stay in a holiday home overnight without anyone noticing. (....hopefully only a very small proportion of us will.)
 
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Babylon

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7 Jan 2008
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Solent
Oh I see... the rules are made according to the wit of the lowest common-denominator of the population?

This whole sorry situation has long since ceased to be about managing the spread of a virus - its more about who can claim the moral high-ground controlling and/or shaming people who're able to apply reason and understanding in the face of hysteria and cynical mismanagement.
 
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GTom

Active member
Joined
12 Jun 2017
Messages
994
This is the point. People are selfish and stupid, and this is why there have to be rules. If everyone was sensible and drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions, we wouldn't need speed limits. Unfortunately rules never make sense around the edges. Is 30.1mph any more dangerous than 29.9? Of course not, but 60 almost certainly is. Of course it's possible to maintain social distancing on one's boat, but using the marina toilets? Ah, but my boat's on a mooring. OK you write the rules - you may get it right for yotties, but what about other activities? Of course I can maintain social distancing playing snooker, but bar billiards? where do you draw the line?
There are speed limits in place but cars are not banned. Marinas write their own hygiene rules and/or they're not open to visitors at all.

...an exception for sailor would be lovely, but I see no reason why sailing would be picked out. If sailing why not wild camping or any of the thousands of other pursuits that could be excepted if we wanted a 7000 page wadge of legislation. (I'd argue we don't want that because it would take years to draft and none of us would read it all because it would be too long.)
A single line: outdoor activities allowed if distancing with locals is satisfied, regardless being day or night. Might also add an allowed range of travel, making it 2 lines.
 
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bdh198

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Joined
28 Sep 2011
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268
Location
Solent
If you’re going to spend the night in one of the Solent’s most popular anchorages... TURN YOUR AIS OFF!

AE383476-867D-4C68-880E-99EDE1FF825B.jpeg


Meanwhile, at another popular anchorage...

770D180A-4CE8-4A49-81C7-8B417DC2AA65.jpeg
 
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