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Is wind vane steering necessary....

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25 Oct 2010
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Brent, you need to take a deep breath and stop ranting.

Show me where I’m fixated on commercial gear and decrying home made as worse by definition. As it happens I’m extremely partial to a bit of DIY. Lots of things on my boat I designed and made or had welded up and then fitted. None of them are available commercially.

The difference is that I can see (and have experienced) failings in steel boats. May I humbly suggest you stop shouting down people who point out the problems and instead of pooh poohing the problems in a dismissive way, you face up to them like most of us seafarers have to do.

Some realistic admissions about maintenance for a steel boat might be a start. Ones that those of us who have sailed steel boats can identify with....
What I am saying is the negatives all have causes, which are easily avoided. What you are saying is one should forget about avoiding the causes, and reject a material outright ,because one can screw up on them ,if one tries hard enough, but accept passively the negatives of plastic, ( Like the risk of sinking suddenly in the night, in mid ocean) .
 
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Brent,

Are you able to post a picture of your self steering gear as asked?

Thanks:encouragement:
Would do, but still too big for such a tiny allowed limit on this site.
Its all in my book.
Tried breaking it up into smaller portions, but even that was too big.
 

john_morris_uk

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North of Cabo, in winter, dark green was warm to the touch on sunny days when she was frozen in in minus 12 degrees C.
South of Cabo it was far too hot. Painting her white was like adding air conditioning. Even changing the deck colour from very light beige to white made a huge difference .
North of Cabo, a white hull caused muskiness in the lockers, which dissappeard as soon as I changed it back to dark green.
On Winston's first boat, the one he circumnavigated in, changing the hull colour from black to white , in Tahiti, gave him a 20 degree change in cabin temperature.
Bare aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to burn the soles of your feet ,in the sun.
A steel boat I sailed in the tropics had a deck painted white.

It got hot enough to burn the soles of your feet and was so bright in the sun that it hurt your eyes.

And you have the cheek to talk of my devotion to one material!

(A non existent devotion by the way. I’m just not fixated on steel as a construction material and can see the advantages and disadvantages of various construction methods and don’t over hype dangers of damage and sinking whilst talking down or belittling problems to try and justify my fixation.)
 

A1Sailor

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Would do, but still too big for such a tiny allowed limit on this site.
Its all in my book.
Tried breaking it up into smaller portions, but even that was too big.
10MB of space is pretty generous.
If you go into your filestore on here (click settings then attachments) you could perhaps delete some redundant ones.
 

A1Sailor

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Yes definitely! He tried a horizontal axis one ,and found it took to much fiddling around, with no real advantage. This one took him around Cape Horn, and on to the Aleutians, then back to BC, with no complaints.
Cost ,under $50 for materials.
Pretty impressive.:encouragement:
 
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A steel boat I sailed in the tropics had a deck painted white.

It got hot enough to burn the soles of your feet and was so bright in the sun that it hurt your eyes.
(Quote)
I don't believe that for one minute, as it is the opposite of what I have experienced in the tropics, on many voyages.
Sunglasses and wheelhouses are a huge advantage, in the tropics, or high latitudes. Wouldn't be without them.
 

john_morris_uk

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A steel boat I sailed in the tropics had a deck painted white.

It got hot enough to burn the soles of your feet and was so bright in the sun that it hurt your eyes.
(Quote)
I don't believe that for one minute, as it is the opposite of what I have experienced in the tropics, on many voyages.
Sunglasses and wheelhouses are a huge advantage, in the tropics, or high latitudes. Wouldn't be without them.
So the deck didn’t get too hot, or if it did it was because it should have been inside a wheelhouse?

May I respectfully as I can point out that you are making a fool of yourself? If I get a minute I’ll post some pictures of the boat. I did have a Bimini at the helm. Incidentally this is the same boat that’s been round the world twice and was professionally maintained at considerable expense but is now cut up for scrap due to corrosion issues and failing its survey (plating corroded away to less than acceptable thickness in too many areas for economic repair.)

Furthermore please don’t question my integrity. I don’t lie and the deck was as hot as I described and as bright. Your comment about sunglasses is facile. One of the reasons I have Treadmaster on my current boat is that it’s non glare and easy on the eyes in addition to its non slip characteristics. (If you are not familiar with Treadmaster, it’s a cork based man made deck covering that’s extremely non slip. It’s stuck on with epoxy and is used extensively in the commercial and work boat world as well as some yachts. https://www.treadmaster.co.uk)

Let’s be honest, any boat in the tropics gets hot. In my experience the only way to alleviate the problem (short of a generator and air con) is ventilation and shade. I have not experienced any advantages whatsoever of a steel boat vs a GRP boat temperature wise. In fact the coolest boats I’ve sailed have been wooden ones, but according to you I’m lucky to be alive after setting foot on one of those.

As I’ve said before, you get carried away with your zeal and people then ignore even the good points that you make.
 
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I have never found white decks to be hot, so don't call me a liar neither.
You are making a fool of yourself, claiming your one trip expertise is more relevant than my over 40 years of steel boat , hands on experience in building, (over 3 dozen of them) maintaining, living aboard and cruising in them.
I have never liked covering decks with anything which would hide corrosion problems, or trap water under it. With paint, you can see what is happening, and promptly deal with any problems early on. Coverings hide any problem, until it becomes a major problem. A bit of sand in your paint gives as good a non skid as anything, for super cheap. Yet another example where spending more gets lesser results.
Sounds like your epoxy job was inadequate, as mine is no problem after 33 years. Get it right and you don't have a problem . If you have a problem, then you have done it wrong. The problem is the paint job, not the steel.
 
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Page 14

And not a single picture of a trim tab windvane worth looking at...
For building the trim tab, I take a 11 inch wide piece of 16 gauge stainless, the length of the trailing edge of the rudder, minus about 3 inches, and put a bend well over 90 degrees in the centre .This bend is best done on a sheet metal hand brake, altho scoring it with a grinder ,and bending it by hand works. Then I bend it around a piece of half inch stainless sch 40 pipe ,the trim tab shaft . I leave about a half inch of balance on it, then weld right thru the 16 gauge to the pipe, before pulling the edges together in a nice airfoil shape. If , after the first bend, both sides are equal, 5 1/2inches, and you match both sides on the trailing edges, it should be symetrical. Best double check it with a bent welding rod .If you use tiny , 1/4 inch tacks every three inches, you can tap one side or the other,to tap it symetrical and straight, before fully welding it. I find that propping it up at a 45 degree angle, and using one inch welds, one can easily weld 16 gauge with stick welding.Put several passes on before grinding , to make sure you don't grind the weld off too much. Laying a big grinding disc on the flat, gives you a much straighter edge.
 

john_morris_uk

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I have never found white decks to be hot, so don't call me a liar neither.
You are making a fool of yourself, claiming your one trip expertise is more relevant than my over 40 years of steel boat , hands on experience in building, (over 3 dozen of them) maintaining, living aboard and cruising in them.
I have never liked covering decks with anything which would hide corrosion problems, or trap water under it. With paint, you can see what is happening, and promptly deal with any problems early on. Coverings hide any problem, until it becomes a major problem. A bit of sand in your paint gives as good a non skid as anything, for super cheap. Yet another example where spending more gets lesser results.
Sounds like your epoxy job was inadequate, as mine is no problem after 33 years. Get it right and you don't have a problem . If you have a problem, then you have done it wrong. The problem is the paint job, not the steel.

Firstly perhaps you'd like to point out where I have called you a liar. You called me a liar directly, but I've only got to question the veracity of some of your more outlandish comments and you start flinging insults around. Please remember that personal insults are against the forum T's and C's.

You have no idea of how much Ocean passage making and general sailing experience I have so less of the one trip wonder please. (If you want to know, I've been sailing over fifty years and have considerable ocean experience so eat your words would be a polite repost.)

We will have to agree to differ over while decks getting hot. I freely admit that they don't get as hot as dark coloured decks but the construction material under the paint makes little or no difference in my experience. Steel or GRP, the only thing that varies is the thermal mass and how much energy is stored in the deck material from the suns rays. In fact some of the steel boats I've been on have definitely felt hotter than some the plastic ones. All down to insulation IMHO.

On the subject of insulation, steel hulls with no insulation inside them can be very noisy. How do I know? Because we had to strip out the insulation from a steel hull because it had been sprayed on (as foam) and whilst it made the boat very pleasant and habitable, it created and exacerbated problems with corrosion. Once stripped out, the thing was like a drum.

Your answer to any of the common problems with steel hulls outlined on here is that people got it wrong. If only they'd painted it as well as you or designed it as well as you or built it as well as you then its a perfect material.

I'll allow others to determine whether those arguments ring true or not.
 
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You have no idea of how much Ocean and sailing experience I have so less of the one trip wonder please. (If you want to know, I've been sailing over fifty years and have considerable ocean experience so eat your words would be a polite repost.)

We will have to agree to differ over while decks getting hot. I freely admit that they don't get as hot as dark coloured decks but the construction material under the paint makes little or no difference in my experience. Steel or GRP, the only thing that varies is the thermal mass and how much energy is stored in the deck material from the suns rays. In fact some of the steel boats I've been on have definitely felt hotter than some the plastic ones. All down to insulation IMHO.

On the subject of insulation, steel hulls with no insulation inside them can be very noisy. How do I know? Because we had to strip out the insulation from a steel hull because it had been sprayed on (as foam) and whilst it made the boat very pleasant and habitable, it created and exacerbated problems with corrosion. Once stripped out, the thing was like a drum.

Your answer to any of the common problems with steel hulls outlined on here is that people got it wrong. If only they'd painted it as well as you or designed it as well as you or built it as well as you then its a perfect material.

I'll allow others to determine whether those arguments ring true or not.
On experience, I am talking about in steel boats.Yes ,metal boats with no insulation are extremely noisy, especially unpainted aluminium. They are also unliveable in these high latitudes, so must be insulared . The only time corrosion under foam is a problem is if the steel under it is inadequately epoxied, which is all too common, drastically shortening the life of many an other wise, good steel boat.
It is only a problem if there is not enough epoxy under it.Not the foam or the steel ,just how you do it.
You say that my stating that, means it is only me who gives such advise ,so it must be wrong?
Just made a fool of yourself ,yet again.
 

john_morris_uk

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On experience, I am talking about in steel boats.Yes ,metal boats with no insulation are extremely noisy, especially unpainted aluminium. They are also unliveable in these high latitudes, so must be insulared . The only time corrosion under foam is a problem is if the steel under it is inadequately epoxied, which is all too common, drastically shortening the life of many an other wise, good steel boat.
It is only a problem if there is not enough epoxy under it.Not the foam or the steel ,just how you do it.
You say that my stating that, means it is only me who gives such advise, so it must be wrong?
Just made a fool of yourself ,yet again.
You seem to consistently ignore the fact that I've sailed in various steel boats over the last fifty years. I'm sorry that I'm not so blinkered as you about their shortcomings; it seems hard for you to understand that people might not be so besotted with steel as a construction material as you are.. They are very good in some respects and can be an absolute nightmare in others.

Be careful about insults against other forum members, I've already pointed out once that the T's and C's don't permit personal insults on these forums. Stick to arguing your case.

However regarding my response to your various bits of advice given with such evangelistic zeal, I'll leave others to determine whether I am making a fool of myself.
 

john_morris_uk

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What I am saying is the negatives all have causes, which are easily avoided. What you are saying is one should forget about avoiding the causes, and reject a material outright ,because one can screw up on them ,if one tries hard enough, but accept passively the negatives of plastic, ( Like the risk of sinking suddenly in the night, in mid ocean) .
I don’t reject one particular material outright at all. I respectfully suggest if anyone is rejecting a material outright it’s you with your attitude to GRP.

Everything is a compromise. One of the sacrifices you make much of with a GRP boat is the possibility (however remote) of collision and catastrophic failure of the watertight integrity of the hull.

I acknowledge this (extremely slight) risk and mitigate against it in my current boat by having a liferaft that automatically floats free and inflates.

There are many benefits to having a GRP boat with pendulum or Hydrovane wind steering. Furthermore some boats (steel or GRP) aren’t suitable for trim tab steering so even if your design (book available) were the very best thing that ever went to sea on a small sailing boat, it doesn't apply to lots of boats anyway.

There are benefits arising from steel construction but there are also drawbacks that you are rather too ready to dismiss.

You and I might be practical and able to weld (my welding admittedly is pretty ropy at times) but lots of people sail round the world in GRP boats perfectly happily. For some reason you seem to think they’re all fools who are a hairsbreadth away from dying. This patently isn’t true.
 
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Tell us more about this steel boat which was good for no more than a couple of circumnavigations. Did she have teak deck?( Major but common screwup)Teak trim on the outside?( Another major, but common screwup.)
No epoxy on the inside ?(Another major, but sadly, very common screwup.)
Moitessier's Joshua is still going strong after several circumnavigations and roughly 50 years, as is British Steel, surviving conditions which would have totally wrecked any plastic boat.
Sail Magazine had recent articles about some one trying the same route in a Bob Perry designed plastic boat with stock yottie gear. He needed 3 goosenecks just to get past the Horn, and was soaking wet and pumping for his life most of the way, as was Webb Chiles in a stock Ericson 37,( read "Storm Passage", then read "The Long Way "by Moitessier ,for a comparison.)
Yes, you can do it in plastic, but I prefer Bernard's experience, over that of Webb Chiles, any time. ( Hedonism over masochism)
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Independence

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I'd like to respectfully ask the 2 of you to take your disagreement some where else than this Jester forum

Your approach in managing discussion of this nature is completely against the Jester philosophy. I hope anyone looking at your comments realises this is not the way we go about things
 
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