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Is wind vane steering necessary....

john_morris_uk

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It would have to be massively bigger than it is, or than is practical, to come even close.
A hydrovane is still a blade supported from only one end ( cantilevered).
I notice that you haven't answered my questions or posted any pictures.

Perhaps the problem is that I have crossed oceans in steel built and GRP boats and the way that I question your assertions is uncomfortable for you?

PS I sleep extremely easily when I am at sea in a well built GRP boat.

PPS The last steel boat I sailed is currently being cut up for scrap. This despite many tens of thousands of £ spent on her up keep. Eventually corrosion just became too much. That boat had been round the world at least twice. And you wonder why so many people find your assertions about steel boats and wind vanes etc etc problematic?
 
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A1Sailor

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I was going to post the drawings of my wind vane, but co256 talked me out of it , when he posted, as "fact ",quotes from what has become "The National Enquirer" of boat forums.
My time will be better spent going hunting, rather than trying to help such people.
Going hunting.
Hope you had a good time. Any pictures available of your haul?
 
Joined
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One common mistake in building your own is too tight bearings. Plastics can absorb sea water and swell. Salt landing on them and drying can build up and jam them. Trim tabs and vanes should rattle loosely or they simply wont work in light airs.
Trim tabs on the trailing edge of the rudder are more effective in light airs ( mine works in 2 knots of following winds, servos need about 8 knots to work), servo rigs are more powerful in strong winds, but are far more fragile and vulnerable, as well as horrendously expensive, and complex.
 
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Joined
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1,365
I notice that you haven't answered my questions or posted any pictures.

Perhaps the problem is that I have crossed oceans in steel built and GRP boats and the way that I question your assertions is uncomfortable for you?

PS I sleep extremely easily when I am at sea in a well built GRP boat.

PPS The last steel boat I sailed is currently being cut up for scrap. This despite many tens of thousands of £ spent on her up keep. Eventually corrosion just became too much. That boat had been round the world at least twice. And you wonder why so many people find your assertions about steel boats and wind vanes etc etc problematic?
What questions?
The Sleavin family slept well on their plastic boat, too. The blissfully naive also sleep well, oblivious to the dangers..
My boat is 33 years old, and 95% of the paint is as good as the day I put it on, 33 years ago. Maintenance is less than $50 a year. Only did 2 haulouts in 33 years, then only because I had 4,000 miles to windward to go, and not enough tide to paint it on a tide. When that is not the case with your boat, you are definitely doing something wrong.
The usual culprit with steel hulls is inadequate paint, mostly inadequate inside, an extremely common screwup.
Get it right and you wont have a problem
Joshua is still sailing ,after how many decades?
 

john_morris_uk

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Messages
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Location
Farnham, Surrey
What questions?
The Sleavin family slept well on their plastic boat, too. The blissfully naive also sleep well, oblivious to the dangers..
My boat is 33 years old, and 95% of the paint is as good as the day I put it on, 33 years ago. Maintenance is less than $50 a year. Only did 2 haulouts in 33 years, then only because I had 4,000 miles to windward to go, and not enough tide to paint it on a tide. When that is not the case with your boat, you are definitely doing something wrong.
The usual culprit with steel hulls is inadequate paint, mostly inadequate inside, an extremely common screwup.
Get it right and you wont have a problem
Joshua is still sailing ,after how many decades?
Questions about what wind vane system to use on a boat that can't use a trim tab system for one.
 

john_morris_uk

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Joined
3 Jul 2002
Messages
22,617
Location
Farnham, Surrey
What questions?
The Sleavin family slept well on their plastic boat, too. The blissfully naive also sleep well, oblivious to the dangers..
My boat is 33 years old, and 95% of the paint is as good as the day I put it on, 33 years ago. Maintenance is less than $50 a year. Only did 2 haulouts in 33 years, then only because I had 4,000 miles to windward to go, and not enough tide to paint it on a tide. When that is not the case with your boat, you are definitely doing something wrong.
The usual culprit with steel hulls is inadequate paint, mostly inadequate inside, an extremely common screwup.
Get it right and you wont have a problem
Joshua is still sailing ,after how many decades?
PS I don't believe that 95% of the paint on your boat at 33 years old is as good as the day you put it on. NOTHING (and certainly no paint) lasts 33 years in the marine environment without showing some degradation.
 
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Poecheng

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East Coast
I was asked this morning “what are you laughing at?”

I can’t repeat what I was reading at the time but the links are all there for anyone with an hour to waste...
I did the same on Sunday and a very enjoyable hour or so I had trying to avoid the jobs lined up for me by the Boss
 

john_morris_uk

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Location
Farnham, Surrey
I did the same on Sunday and a very enjoyable hour or so I had trying to avoid the jobs lined up for me by the Boss
It’s a thread that keeps on giving. Should we ask for the make of paint that’s lasted 33 years on a steel boat in the marine environment and is as good as the day it was applied? I expect the manufacturers would like some pictures. It would be great advertising for them.
 
Joined
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Bernard Moitessier’s Joshua certainly showed signs of degradation, he wrecked her along with all his previous boats, having abandoned Joshua she was salvaged by someone who rebuilt her, it wasn’t until years later that she was taken in to care by the French.

In spite of his propensity for wrecking boats he painted them more frequently than once...
She survived a situation which totally wrecked the plastic boat which landed on her, and broke up completely ( real degradation ),poof of which was tougher, beyond all reasonable doubt.
Her trouble free, roaring 40s circumnavigations, also proved the benefits of steel.
Shortly after ,after minimal work , she sailed on to Port Townsend in Juan de Fuca, where she sailed for years, before going to France.
All boats require maintenance . For plastic it is chasing down deck leaks ,non existent on a well built steel boat, and replacing those which break up( like the one which landed on Joshua,)on steel it is simply painting.
Yes, lots of paint is critical . Bernard made that clear.The last guy who built one of my boats had his steel Roberts rust out from inside, due to no paint under the spray foam inside, a very common screwup. On this one, he plans at least 9 coats of epoxy tar inside, before spray foaming. That will be good for the rest of his lifetime
 
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Someone has kindly documented the building of their trim tab windvane...

http://www.svsarana.com/selfsteering.php

And included a free 33 page pdf on the subject...


I believe all next years GGR entrants have transom hung rudders yet all entered have opted for servo pendulum gear or Hydrovane...
Yes, for racing, power in strong winds , enabling one to carry far more sail than would be wise for cruisers, often takes priority over toughness and reliability. In cruising priorities , the opposite is true.
From Pol Pot, to rev Jim Jones , to Musolini, to Hitler, to Stalin, to recently elected total nut bars, history is full of examples of huge numbers of people all being wrong, and only a small minority being right, sometimes only one individual.

So, giving the numbers of people who believe one way, as an example of what is right, is absolutely no measure of the right way of doing anything.
Had I simply done what every one else is doing and thinking, I would have spent a great deal of my life working to pay debts, instead of semi retiring to cruise the South Pacific in my 20's, and cruised mostly full time ever since.

All human progress since the stone age was made by people who simply didn't accept group think.
 
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john_morris_uk

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I've sailed a couple of steel boats and lots of GRP boats. We had no end of trouble with corrosion and leaks on one of the steel boats.

Some of the GRP boats didn't leak at all.

Is this proof that GRP boats are better?

I don't think so as it happens, but as I repeatedly say, boat building and yacht design is ALWAYS a compromise. My sadness is that some people don't recognise that and they do themselves a huge disservice by their single-mindedness. Being single minded can be a good thing, but when its taken to extremes it can also make you look a fool and make people not take you seriously.

Now where's this advice on what wind vane system to put on a boat that hasn't got a rudder suitable for some amazing trim tab system.

And where are the photo's of this amazing trim tab system please?

And where are the photos of this amazing paint system?
 
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A1Sailor

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I suspect we should simply accept that Mr Swain is unable to post the pictures he has been asked to provide.
 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonmXsXSdtU

This windvane. Works like a charm, in extremely light winds ,far lighter than it takes to run a servo rig.

This is identical to the one in my book, and plans.

John Lecher , aircraft designer and practical cruiser ,in his book on self steering, made the point that one should start with the cheapest materials , and only use the expensive stuff later, after refinement.
Seems Haidan got that point, clearly.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
Leonardo da Vinci.
 
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Definitely not true. Only unavailable from Amazon, whom I have never dealt with.

It is available from me by mail order. Has been since the early 90s, without interuption.
Or from The Nautical Mind bookstore in Toronto.
Currently titled " Origami Metal Boat Building"
 
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But he assures us he's sailed across the Pacific many times and my understanding is that he's implying he's one of the most experienced sailors on the planet?
Hilo Clearance.jpg
Previous ports on this voyage ( one of many)clearly listed, which US customs tends to check diligently , with severe consequences for any deception.
 
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Joined
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1,365
I've sailed a couple of steel boats and lots of GRP boats. We had no end of trouble with corrosion and leaks on one of the steel boats.

Where were the leaks ?Under a teak deck? Bolted down fittings, which should have been welded down. Those are the points I have been making. Get it right and you have no leaks.
 
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