Is the Caribbean a solution to 90/180?

[geem]

I have been looking at the same problem.... plus the cost upgrading my boat with self steering gear, SSB etc..plus marina fees when not anchoring.

For about the price of those two items combined you could put your boat on the specialised yacht ship in Palma de Majorca and have her delivered to Martinique...

I guess it depends on where you are starting out in terms of boat seaworthiness. There not much needed to cross the Atlantic. You dont need SSB. Very few use it these days. Wind self steering in useful but not essential. Many just use autopilots but spares for it would be a minimum. Second hand wind self steering gear comes up for sail regularly. My own Windpilot was purchased almost new for £1900. You dont need to be in the Canaries for long before you leave for the Caribbean. I recently weather routed friends who sailed from Sicily to Gib. Stopped for fuel and a quick supermarket shop then on to Grand Canaria. They were there three days then set off for Antigua. They hadn't been on their boat for several months due to lockdown and flight restrictions. It just shows it can be done with minimal time in expensive marinas.
For me I wouldn't want to miss the Atlantic crossing. Its the nice direction?

 

[BurnitBlue]

I think the marinas in the Canaries are as safe as anywhere in the world - very sophisticated - and expensive

I was not aiming at marinas in the Canaries being insecure. They are no doubt the same as the best anywhere. I was remarking on the geographic situation of leaving a fully loaded boat in full commission in a place where the "country" could be cleared completely in any direction in a matter of hours.

That would not be possible in many other places where a theft discovered in (say) six hours could be recoverable. A thief in the canaries would know an owner was not even in the country and could not get back in time. A clever thief would even know which country and the flight times.

 

[BurnitBlue]

How about spending time in Morocco along the way ? to keep your EU time to a minimum

Bingo. That is my plan. I have never before even considered Morocco so I am watching Youtube videos to get my mindset in the groove. I am actually surprised about how inviting they look.

 

[BurnitBlue]

@ geem.
Good post. I guess the main thing about a weather routing in 2021 will be the date the crew get the second vaccination. I think a crew currently in UK would be Ok to make a plan starting mid to late summer. Those in the EU (like me) may be delayed well into Autumn as the EU has still not got got its act together yet.

 

[geem]

@ geem.
Good post. I guess the main thing about a weather routing in 2021 will be the date the crew get the second vaccination. I think a crew currently in UK would be Ok to make a plan starting mid to late summer. Those in the EU (like me) may be delayed well into Autumn as the EU has still not got got its act together yet.

Yep, we plan to head south in June. We will head across Biscay in July, hopefully, then down to Canaries for an end of November departure for Antigua.

 

[steve yates]

How long do folk usually take to the canaries after crossing biscay, assuming the explore along the way and dont just hammer on down?

 

[syvictoria]

@ geem.
Good post. I guess the main thing about a weather routing in 2021 will be the date the crew get the second vaccination. I think a crew currently in UK would be Ok to make a plan starting mid to late summer. Those in the EU (like me) may be delayed well into Autumn as the EU has still not got got its act together yet.

Depending upon the age of your crew, of course! I can't see many UK 40-somethings, or possibly even all 50-somethings, having been vaccinated by mid to late summer. But perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic - I blame the weather!

 

[RobbieW]

How long do folk usually take to the canaries after crossing biscay, assuming the explore along the way and dont just hammer on down?

You could spin that out for several years, spending time on the Algarve along the way. The problem right now is managing that trip within the 90/180 that we currently understand limits our time in the EU. I have done the trip in about 12 days, UK to Lisbon, Lisbon to Lagos, Lagos to Lanazarote; that would leave you free to decide where to use the extra time.

 

[BurnitBlue]

You could spin that out for several years, spending time on the Algarve along the way. The problem right now is managing that trip within the 90/180 that we currently understand limits our time in the EU. I have done the trip in about 12 days, UK to Lisbon, Lisbon to Lagos, Lagos to Lanazarote; that would leave you free to decide where to use the extra time.

Yes. There is an on-going saga on another thread close by on this forum where webby is trapped in Spain (i think) with engine replacement. He may soon have issues with the 90/180. I haven't followed it closely because it is the Atlantic coastline you also mention. I must catch up to see how he copes.

 

[James Marinero]

I think that is pretty well my experience but there are lots of very accessible alternatives which is what I did...

Not to mention Cuba, Bahamas, Mexico, the ABC islands... as well.

I kept Bambola in Trinidad each hurricane season for 3 years and flew back to the UK out of Tobago.. The total costs of all this were less than keeping a boat in the Med... I agree one beach bar and set of boat boys is like another in every island but... I am desperately tempted to go back next winter which has welled up since I finished editing and published

400 mile reach from ABC to Jamaica, then Cuba, then BVI, Sint Maarten. Jamaica - Port Antonio - was wonderful. Cuba amazing. We kept the boat in Grenada for 2 winters. Culture? There's Mayan ruins s in Mexico (I think!) tho we didn't go there. Colombia was a pleasure. Cartagena if you like fortifications though it's a windy corner. The San Blas (next time).
Lunch in Jamaica near the James Bond Beach:


FWIW we had a load of hassle flying Norwegian through JFK and back from Grenada. Much better was Martinique/Paris as another poster said. Air Canada via Toronto worked ok too from Grenada.

 

[Sea Devil]

Yes I used to fly back by going to Martinique but you must book the channel tunnel train in advance as the on the day price is ruinous. The train to London was 50 euro and the flight Trinidad or Grenada to Martinique was a similar price but the trans Atlantic flight was pea nuts - coconuts
I have been pricing shipping my boat to the Caribbean rather than own bottom - much cheaper!

 

[Beneteau381]

Political tosh

No it isnt

 

[Beneteau381]

Yes. There is an on-going saga on another thread close by on this forum where webby is trapped in Spain (i think) with engine replacement. He may soon have issues with the 90/180. I haven't followed it closely because it is the Atlantic coastline you also mention. I must catch up to see how he copes.

I believe he did the same as us, temp residence, easy and cheap

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Yes.
I do not blame Brexit, the UK, or Greece. I blame the power crazy fools in Brussels for placing 27 far flung countries under a collective 3 month tourist limit. The Med countries had only one advantage over their Northern neighbours and that was sunshine and Med beaches but that has been ripped off them. The poorer countries of EU, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Malta, Greece, and eventually the adriatic states will have to share the 3 month tourist pie from the rich countries like USA Canada UK, Australia New zeeland and many others. They imagine that tying a noose round 27 countries will bind them together more tightly is a good thing. Yeah right.

Remember before the EU each country allowed tourists for three month, some for six month. Ooops I had no intention of ranting off like this. I am effectively trapped inside Schengen because of my resident status and my disapointment in what started as a trade agreement has been hijacked by sociapaths in Brussels.

The EU members appreciate the economic benefits of frictionless trade, there may be pockets of dissent, but FoM of people, goods and capital, the single market, and the customs union is the result of years of work to streamline the "trade agreement" from 60 years ago. A lot can and will happen in 60 years.

Every individual EU country is still free to grant a long-stay visa to non-EU citizens, just like before Schengen.

But the Eurozone, the single market, the customs union and the Schengen area are complex international agreements.

FoM needs to be balanced with each countries need for sovereignty over its own borders - so there are rules associated with FoM (no more than 3 months for another EU national if they can't afford to pay their way, no entitlement to benefits until they have worked and contributed, deportation or refusal of entry if they commit certain crimes).
That covers EU nationals, so while EU members all agreed to accept each others citizens subject to only a few basic rules, and dismantled their borders, the question remained - What to do with non-EU citizens with extended country specific visas?
This is where the Schengen 90/180 rules apply. They are there to compliment the FoM restrictions by addressing the non-EU citizens.
They ensure non-EU citizens don't game the system by getting a visa in one EU country and then become long-stay residents in another - the Schengen rules prevent one sovereign EU nation making decisions about immigration on behalf of its sovereign neighbour states.

That's fair isn't it?

90/180 stops one EU state letting every man and his dog in on a extended country specific visa or visa-waiver, and those people then dispersing around the other EU Schengen countries without any controls - effectively removing the sovereign right of other EU countries to decide which non-EU citizens reside there, or enter for a long-term stay.
E.g. - France has a year-long French visa - why should that allow the recipient to spend 6 months in Germany?

Because of Schengen 90/180, each EU country remains sovereign and can make decisions about which non-EU citizens can stay and for how long, but only for themselves and within their own borders.

Schengen rules enable 99.999% of normal tourism without issue - they make country-hopping to extend a stay problematic though, people can't just cross an unmanned border and disappear - they will get caught when they eventually have to go through a Schengen check again. Quite sensible really, and it will work even better with ETIAS.

Finally, it was the gift of all EU countries individually to be part of Schengen or not, it's called sovereignty, and there is no dictator sitting in Brussels telling those EU countries what to do - that is simply a lie - everything the EU decides to do is a joint decision at the end of the day, ratified by the member states - the UK even used to have a veto on proposals it really didn't like.

The UK left the EU partly because it didn't like FoM. UK citizens being subject to Schengen 90/180 is the consequence. I'm sorry, but the blame for being unable to freely roam the EU post-Brexit lies entirely with the decision to leave - no-one forced the UK to leave, and no-one forced the UK government to make "ending FoM once and for all" a red line in the negotiations. It's not like this is a surprise is it? You just had to go on Noonsite and look at the "cruising europe" threads to see what it was going to be like post-Brexit.

It is obvious you don't agree with the collective decisions of the EU member countries with regards to closer and closer integration, that is fine with me, you are entitled to your opinion, and you should be happy that the UK is no longer part of the EU - it is obviously what you wanted.

I do have a question though, why do you think you now have the right as a non-EU member to tell the EU sovereign nations what they can and can't agree among themselves regarding the movement of non-EU nationals? Greece can give Brits an extended tourist visa covering Greece if it wants to - nothing from Brussels is stopping them - France already does it. ... but why should that Greek visa grant access to Italy or Spain?

We kept hearing on this forum that "we used to travel and trade before the EU!!! ... what's the problem?" ... well now perhaps it is becoming clear that the world has moved on in the last 50 years ... Europe has embraced FoM, the single market, and the customs union, and walking back those agreements comes with certain disadvantages - I'm sorry the Leave campaign didn`t explicitly point these out to you, and that the remain campaign was drowned out by cries of "Project fear!!!", but 48% of the UK vote didn't want this sh!tshow - and if you failed to appreciate why, then it is hardly anyone else's fault but your own. You seem like a well-travelled chap, surely you didn't believe the "We hold all the cards" arguments?

In the end, I guess you just have to suck it up, just like the rest of us are having to do. We're all in this together, the difference is remainers didn't want it. I have personally gone through the process of obtaining dual citizenship German/British for a family of 5 in order to retain our FoM rights and remain as free as we were pre-Brexit, my boat is in the Med and my retirement cruising plans remain unaffected. If your freedom to roam Europe means so much to you, I suggest you do something similar. Remember, we used to travel and work abroad before the EU ? ... what's the problem?

What I find hard to accept is the whining and complaining, and the blaming of "Brussels" for something leavers brought upon themselves, it is abundantly clear that there is little understanding of what the EU rules are, why they are as they are, and how the EU functions.

Clue: It has nothing to do with a Brussels bogeyman dictating to Europe - that was invented by the UK tabloids - the EU is much more pragmatic and boring than that.

 

[Sea Devil]

Just watched your Atlantic vid and enjoyed it, nice job. Looking forward to watching the down the French coast one and the two canal ones now.
Thx.

Thank you Steve,
I really enjoyed making them - and it's terrific when someone gets pleasure out of them. So rewarding

 

[BurnitBlue]

The EU members appreciate the economic benefits of frictionless trade, there may be pockets of dissent, but FoM of people, goods and capital, the single market, and the customs union is the result of years of work to streamline the "trade agreement" from 60 years ago. A lot can and will happen in 60 years.

Every individual EU country is still free to grant a long-stay visa to non-EU citizens, just like before Schengen.

But the Eurozone, the single market, the customs union and the Schengen area are complex international agreements.

FoM needs to be balanced with each countries need for sovereignty over its own borders - so there are rules associated with FoM (no more than 3 months for another EU national if they can't afford to pay their way, no entitlement to benefits until they have worked and contributed, deportation or refusal of entry if they commit certain crimes).
That covers EU nationals, so while EU members all agreed to accept each others citizens subject to only a few basic rules, and dismantled their borders, the question remained - What to do with non-EU citizens with extended country specific visas?
This is where the Schengen 90/180 rules apply. They are there to compliment the FoM restrictions by addressing the non-EU citizens.
They ensure non-EU citizens don't game the system by getting a visa in one EU country and then become long-stay residents in another - the Schengen rules prevent one sovereign EU nation making decisions about immigration on behalf of its sovereign neighbour states.

That's fair isn't it?

90/180 stops one EU state letting every man and his dog in on a extended country specific visa or visa-waiver, and those people then dispersing around the other EU Schengen countries without any controls - effectively removing the sovereign right of other EU countries to decide which non-EU citizens reside there, or enter for a long-term stay.
E.g. - France has a year-long French visa - why should that allow the recipient to spend 6 months in Germany?

Because of Schengen 90/180, each EU country remains sovereign and can make decisions about which non-EU citizens can stay and for how long, but only for themselves and within their own borders.

Schengen rules enable 99.999% of normal tourism without issue - they make country-hopping to extend a stay problematic though, people can't just cross an unmanned border and disappear - they will get caught when they eventually have to go through a Schengen check again. Quite sensible really, and it will work even better with ETIAS.

Finally, it was the gift of all EU countries individually to be part of Schengen or not, it's called sovereignty, and there is no dictator sitting in Brussels telling those EU countries what to do - that is simply a lie - everything the EU decides to do is a joint decision at the end of the day, ratified by the member states - the UK even used to have a veto on proposals it really didn't like.

The UK left the EU partly because it didn't like FoM. UK citizens being subject to Schengen 90/180 is the consequence. I'm sorry, but the blame for being unable to freely roam the EU post-Brexit lies entirely with the decision to leave - no-one forced the UK to leave, and no-one forced the UK government to make "ending FoM once and for all" a red line in the negotiations. It's not like this is a surprise is it? You just had to go on Noonsite and look at the "cruising europe" threads to see what it was going to be like post-Brexit.

It is obvious you don't agree with the collective decisions of the EU member countries with regards to closer and closer integration, that is fine with me, you are entitled to your opinion, and you should be happy that the UK is no longer part of the EU - it is obviously what you wanted.

I do have a question though, why do you think you now have the right as a non-EU member to tell the EU sovereign nations what they can and can't agree among themselves regarding the movement of non-EU nationals? Greece can give Brits an extended tourist visa covering Greece if it wants to - nothing from Brussels is stopping them - France already does it. ... but why should that Greek visa grant access to Italy or Spain?

We kept hearing on this forum that "we used to travel and trade before the EU!!! ... what's the problem?" ... well now perhaps it is becoming clear that the world has moved on in the last 50 years ... Europe has embraced FoM, the single market, and the customs union, and walking back those agreements comes with certain disadvantages - I'm sorry the Leave campaign didn`t explicitly point these out to you, and that the remain campaign was drowned out by cries of "Project fear!!!", but 48% of the UK vote didn't want this sh!tshow - and if you failed to appreciate why, then it is hardly anyone else's fault but your own. You seem like a well-travelled chap, surely you didn't believe the "We hold all the cards" arguments?

In the end, I guess you just have to suck it up, just like the rest of us are having to do. We're all in this together, the difference is remainers didn't want it. I have personally gone through the process of obtaining dual citizenship German/British for a family of 5 in order to retain our FoM rights and remain as free as we were pre-Brexit, my boat is in the Med and my retirement cruising plans remain unaffected. If your freedom to roam Europe means so much to you, I suggest you do something similar. Remember, we used to travel and work abroad before the EU ? ... what's the problem?

What I find hard to accept is the whining and complaining, and the blaming of "Brussels" for something leavers brought upon themselves, it is abundantly clear that there is little understanding of what the EU rules are, why they are as they are, and how the EU functions.

Clue: It has nothing to do with a Brussels bogeyman dictating to Europe - that was invented by the UK tabloids - the EU is much more pragmatic and boring than that.

By quoting my post with this enormous wordy justification for the Brussels idiocy you have made me realise how right I was. Your own obviously well researched statistic that 99.999% of world citizens are totally unaffected by Schengen rules means that you yourself must be part of the 0.0001% who are effected because you had to take dual citizenship to circumvent those rules. How fortunite we are to have such a rare minority poster in our midst.

The fact is that having been reminded that there are hundreds of magnificent destinations in the rest of the world to sail around I could not give a rats ass about 90/180 inside the new Iron Curtain mark 2. Only livaboards and mobile home people are effected but salvation also comes from their own mobility. Houde owners can use visas in the single member state they are stuck in.

90/180 will suffice for me for the occasional visit.

Yes I am very glad that UK is a free and independant nation again. I am off to the Caribbean this year Covid permitting so eat your hearts out behind Iron Curtain mark 2.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Yes I used to fly back by going to Martinique but you must book the channel tunnel train in advance as the on the day price is ruinous. The train to London was 50 euro and the flight Trinidad or Grenada to Martinique was a similar price but the trans Atlantic flight was pea nuts - coconuts
I have been pricing shipping my boat to the Caribbean rather than own bottom - much cheaper!

Absolutely brilliant post and video. I also have used the Paris/Martinique airline route a few times. The shipping method is a good option for UK yachts. Unfortunitely, my own boat is in Greece and I have to run the gauntlet of 90 days for a summer escape. This should be OK. I only hope for good weather for an easy passage. The mediterranean has become violent these last few years so a good weather watch is necessary. Of course another large factor is the Vaccination timing. Most news outlets report that everyone will be have both jabs by September. This gives me September October November to get free which should be fine.

 

[BurnitBlue]

After the obvious and nasty attack on this thread that absolutely needed defending can the rest of this thread focus on the title. Start your own thread if you insist on political statements. In fact FO to the lounge with them.

 

[BurnitBlue]

BTW. My original political post was an attack against Brussels idiocy and its effect on my sailing. I did not attack that mess of baggywrinkle who personnally attacked me.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

By quoting my post with this enormous wordy justification for the Brussels idiocy you have made me realise how right I was. Your own obviously well researched statistic that 99.999% of world citizens are totally unaffected by Schengen rules means that you yourself must be part of the 0.0001% who are effected because you had to take dual citizenship to circumvent those rules. How fortunite we are to have such a rare minority poster in our midst.

The fact is that having been reminded that there are hundreds of magnificent destinations in the rest of the world to sail around I could not give a rats ass about 90/180 inside the new Iron Curtain mark 2. Only livaboards and mobile home people are effected but salvation also comes from their own mobility. Houde owners can use visas in the single member state they are stuck in.

90/180 will suffice for me for the occasional visit.

Yes I am very glad that UK is a free and independant nation again. I am off to the Caribbean this year Covid permitting so eat your hearts out behind Iron Curtain mark 2.

? ? ? .... LOL ... you still don't get it do you. Iron Curtain Mk2 really made me chuckle. To paraphrase Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy ......

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the Schengen Rules have been available at the EU Library in Brussels for 36 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Brussels? Oh, for heaven’s sake, UK citizens, it’s only four hours away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the ETIAS Database.”

27 countries clubbed together and decided to grant FoM to their citizens, while also agreeing to limit the movement of non-EU citizens in their territories.

You left, you didn't like that agreement, you voluntarily became a non-EU citizen, but still expect the same FoM rights as members? - you do realise how ridiculous that is? ..... but I guess that is how Brexit was sold.

The fact is that 90 days is perfectly adequate for tourism, and yes, 99,999% of rest-of-world tourists never hit the 90 day limit - the problem you have is that idiots like me used our FoM rights and settled in the EU, only to have the rug pulled from under us by Brexit - so the majority sucked it up and sorted ourselves out - doesn't mean we have to like it, or stop posting about the stupidity of that decision.

... anyway, the 90/180 rule was so good, the French and Dutch decided to extend it to their overseas territories too. So there are also ramifications of Brexit in the Caribbean. If you're planning to head there this year, then better start researching your visa waivers, buying your courtesy flags, and mugging up on the rules for visitors.

How Long Can You Stay in the Caribbean Parts of the Netherlands Without a Caribbean visa?

(Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçaok, Saba, St Eustatius, St Maarten)

Without a Caribbean visa, you can remain in one of the Caribbean parts of the Kingdom for a maximum of 90 days in a 180-day period.

Some exceptions include:

• If you are a national of the Netherlands or the United States, you can stay in any of the Caribbean parts of the Kingdom for up to 180 consecutive days within any 365-day period.
• If you are a national of a Schengen Area country, you can stay in Aruba for up to 180 consecutive days within any 365-day period.

To remain there for any longer, you must apply for a Netherlands long-term visa (MVV) and/or a Dutch residence permit.

Caribbean Visa

Similarly for French territories .... although the European portion of France is part of the Schengen Area, its overseas departments, collectivities and other territories apply their own visa policies, which have some additional exemptions or restrictions compared to the visa policy of the Schengen Area.

Unlimited period
Nationals of the following countries can enter and reside for an unlimited period without a visa in Overseas France.

... European Union ....

Post Brexit ... the UK now falls into the following category ...

Short stays
For stays of up to 3 months in a 6-month period, visa-free entry is granted to nationals of the following countries and territories (except as otherwise noted):[1][2][3][4][5][6]

... United Kingdom Including all classes of British nationality

Visa policies of Overseas France - Wikipedia

All this nonsense aside, I hope you have a wonderful time over there and some proper adventures - but if I were you, just chill out and be happy you are no longer in the EU, you got what you wanted and can now "suck it up" with the rest of us.