Hot Liquid: the response

wadget

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As I said in the other thread - Dayskipper isn't a QUALIFICATION it is a Certificate of Competence - nitpicking it maybe - but gaining that cert of competence is down to the individual instructor.

Anyway - good on the DS who felt he didn't have the experience to helm - it could've been so easy to give in and take the helm anyway.


Its not a Certificate of competence its a course completion certificate. You have to take an exam for a COC.

But that's slightly irrelevant. The skipper shouldn't have attempted to go and the company shouldn't have let him.

However the fact they are previous customers of hot liquid says probably says something about the level of training they provide, even a day skipper should be able to realise that heading out into a 10 is a bad idea.
 

jimi

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To a certain extent I can understand the skipper trying to grab a weather window and go for it , however in that weather forecast scenario he needed cast iron Plan A , Plan B and Plan C. It looks as if he only had half a Plan A at best.

Another thing that gives me a long pause for thought is this [removed by admin] response. No credibility, and just opens the door totally to very serious questions about the integrity and competence of the management of this outfit.
 
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newman123

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Response was simply untrue

I am astounded by Hot Liquid's response. It bears no relation to what happened and the timings etc are all wrong. I will be speaking to the MAIB tomorrow. I am not very experienced but I was experienced enough to know that we should have run for cover and I suggested Newhaven several times but was ignored. I refused to take the helm because I was feeling unwell and wanted him to take some responsibility but sadly he didn't. I have never been seasick before and did a voyage from Athens to Gibralter in 2005 when at times we encountered rough conditions. The whole trip was reckless and I felt to ill to do anything about it.
 

Yacht Yogi

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A little balance

Let's not get too extreme in condemnation of Hot Liquid.

The report linked above relates to the Myth of Malham race. Hot Liquid seem to have used an employed skipper and a mate with the rest of the crew made up of paying customers. This is pretty much the same thing that Sailing Logic and Sunsail do for racing. The report criticises the skipper for leaving an inexperienced person at the helm while he went forward to sort out something on the foredeck. That was misjudgement on the part of the skipper. I don't know the actual conditions at the time of the accident but generally that was a very rough weather race, according to my teenage son who sailed it on a different boat.

Hot Liquid are not the only company to have injured crew on occasion. One of the Sailing Logic boats had to retire from the 2009 Fastnet when a crewmember broke (I think) a leg. Sunsail had to have a skipper/mate helicoptered off of one of their F-40's recently when he was struck by the boom in an accidental gybe in the Solent. Sunsail had another Lifeboat call out just before Christmas due to a dismasting in "near gale" conditions in the Solent.

Now this latest incident is different because it was not a race but was advertised as a miles-builder cruising sail. I would whole-heartedly agree with the general consensus of the Forum responses that the skipper involved appears to have acted exceedingly irresponsibly. Hot Liquid's method of selecting skippers is clearly questionable but maybe his past record was OK and there was no reason to doubt him.

I and my 2 teenage children did our Day Skipper with Hot Liquid. I have nothing but praise for the training skipper provided for us on that occasion and looking back with a little more experience I think it was a very good course. The only criticism I could make of the company is that their core fleet of Bavarias is getting a bit tired.

So there are risks and injuries occurring occasionally in all of the charter and training fleets and I wouldn't have said that Hot Liquid were any worse than anybody else. Clearly this latest was a very bad incident in my and most people's opinion. But I wonder if overall their incident rate is actually any worse than the other training/charter companies.
 

westernman

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From the video made from the lifeboat, the conditions look decidedly unpleasant, but in no way life threatening.

As far as I am aware, they had plenty of sea room so the boat could be left to lie a hull safely. It would of course be very uncomfortable. It would be more comfortable trailing a warp and/or drogue heading downwind not too fast.

Am I missing something????

Watching the video, I never saw the bows or stern of the yacht under water. I never saw a wave break over the yacht. I have been out heading into wind and waves and had the bow and bowsprit of my boat well underwater - without being in the slightest bit worried. Two of my crew were suffering from sea sickness though and were tucked up in their bunks below not very happy......
 
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Simondjuk

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Mr Manning must be as deluded as his 'skipper' in thinking he can gloss over this potentially life threatening endeavour as merely an unfortunate turn of events! He simply serves to make himself look foolish.

Some very simple points for you, Mr Manning.

1. Yachts should not put to sea with a F10 forecast well within the minimum passage time. Period!

2. Brighton, Eastbourne and Dover represent at best dicey, at worst dangerous ports of refuge in SW gales. Period!

3. If you trained the Day Skipper who was on board, as you seem to allude to having done in your statement, and they didn't flat refuse to put to sea with a storm forecast, then I'm afraid it seems to me you failed to train them to be any sort of skipper whatsoever, be it day, night, or bathtub duckie!

4. If the Day Skipper's training lacked as above and they were perhaps the most 'qualified', then it's hard for me to conceive of how the remaining, perhaps less 'qualified' crew members, could be described as anything but complete novices.

5. Your skipper wilfully put to sea with a boat full of paying passengers of limited experience, in spite of having publically acknowledged that Storm Force 10 winds were very likely to be encountered during the passage. He even mentioned that he might use the storm jib and trysail.

I say again, since it truly beggars belief....

Prior to departure he broadcast on Twitter that he had considered the likelihood of needing to use sails designed for survival conditions in order to make a routine passage, and then put to sea regardless.


Heck, he didn't just broadcast it, he practically Yippie Yi Ay'd and boasted about it.... which gets me thinking.
 

Kukri

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Mr Manning must be as deluded as his 'skipper' in thinking he can gloss over this potentially life threatening endeavour as merely an unfortunate turn of events! He simply serves to make himself look foolish.

Some very simple points for you, Mr Manning.

1. Yachts should not put to sea with a F10 forecast well within the minimum passage time. Period!

2. Brighton, Eastbourne and Dover represent at best dicey, at worst dangerous ports of refuge in SW gales. Period!

3. If you trained the Day Skipper who was on board, as you seem to allude to having done in your statement, and they didn't flat refuse to put to sea with a storm forecast, then I'm afraid it seems to me you failed to train them to be any sort of skipper whatsoever, be it day, night, or bathtub duckie!

4. If the Day Skipper's training lacked as above and they were perhaps the most 'qualified', then it's hard for me to conceive of how the remaining, perhaps less 'qualified' crew members, could be described as anything but complete novices.

5. Your skipper wilfully put to sea with a boat full of paying passengers of limited experience, in spite of having publically acknowledged that Storm Force 10 winds were very likely to be encountered during the passage. He even mentioned that he might use the storm jib and trysail.

I say again, since it truly beggars belief....

Prior to departure he broadcast on Twitter that he had considered the likelihood of needing to use sails designed for survival conditions in order to make a routine passage, and then put to sea regardless.


Heck, he didn't just broadcast it, he practically Yippie Yi Ay'd and boasted about it.... which gets me thinking.

Very well put.

If you set out to make a long distance passage, you set out expecting to meet this sort of weather. There was no reason at all to set off on a coastal passage with this forecast.
 

Marmalade

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The scariest thought of all (for me) isn't the running downwind - which must have been rolly enough - but in order to make any port they'd have to turn beam on to the sea - can you imagine going through eg Brighton, Newhaven etc with that wind and sea on the beam??
 

Tintin

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From the video made from the lifeboat, the conditions look decidedly unpleasant, but in no way life threatening.

As far as I am aware, they had plenty of sea room so the boat could be left to lie a hull safely. It would of course be very uncomfortable. It would be more comfortable trailing a warp and/or drogue heading downwind not too fast.

Am I missing something????

Watching the video, I never saw the bows or stern of the yacht under water. I never saw a wave break over the yacht. I have been out heading into wind and waves and had the bow and bowsprit of my boat well underwater - without being in the slightest bit worried. Two of my crew were suffering from sea sickness though and were tucked up in their bunks below not very happy......

From the other thread I think someone pointed out that the video was later on in the rescue when conditions had eased. The lifeboat doing the tow in the video came on the scene later I think.
 

rotrax

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YBW story

From the YBW article



Yet in the original thread one of the crew said that even though he had a Day Skipper ticket, he felt he was not experienced enough to helm.

Someone should explain to Mr Manning that RYA tickets do not necessarily bestow experience (or indeed, common sense).

In Febuary 2004 a Motorsports freind and I did our dayskipper practical with On Deck Sailing. The Skipper/ Instructor was Jason Manning. I was a newcomer to sailing but had been around boats all my life and had considerable experience of small motor craft. Jason Manning was a good Skipper and instructor,even though he was new to the game. We had no qualms about his competance to do the job and to keep the five students safe during some pretty awful febuary weather.When the training boat suffered a severe ingress of water due to a split stern gland hose he (and the crew) coped with it well. Two years later I contacted him about some training on my own newly purchased boat. He was too busy,having just started Hot Liquid Sailing. I cant help wondering if Jason Manning has heavy financial commitments involving the purchase of his craft and must keep them earning at all costs. If this is the case there is a good reason for taking a close look at Hot Liquid and similar organisations. As my motorsports mate Geoff said after our Day Skipper Course "If Health and Safety get hold of sail training it will finish it!" We both came from H&S mad industry and found it hard to believe what little H&S content the course had. I am only guessing at a possible reason for having [removed by admin] staff-probably freelance on a fixed fee-to take on jobs that in three instances have required help from the emergancy services. The first time its an accident-the second time its coincedence but the third time its inexcusable! In my opinion,of course.....
 
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marklucas

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Well said by Simon JK

I hadn't monitored the shipping forecast for the beginning of the week but had kept an eye on the synoptics - to the extent that I was giving a gentle warning to my wife as she returned to work that morning.

We live in Buckinghamshire and she works in Berkshire!

Perhaps Simon can dig out the synoptic from his archives - it was clearly going to be very nasty.
 

maxi77

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In Febuary 2004 a Motorsports freind and I did our dayskipper practical with On Deck Sailing. The Skipper/ Instructor was Jason Manning. I was a newcomer to sailing but had been around boats all my life and had considerable experience of small motor craft. Jason Manning was a good Skipper and instructor,even though he was new to the game. We had no qualms about his competance to do the job and to keep the five students safe during some pretty awful febuary weather.When the training boat suffered a severe ingress of water due to a split stern gland hose he (and the crew) coped with it well. Two years later I contacted him about some training on my own newly purchased boat. He was too busy,having just started Hot Liquid Sailing. I cant help wondering if Jason Manning has heavy financial commitments involving the purchase of his craft and must keep them earning at all costs. If this is the case there is a good reason for taking a close look at Hot Liquid and similar organisations. As my motorsports mate Geoff said after our Day Skipper Course "If Health and Safety get hold of sail training it will finish it!" We both came from H&S mad industry and found it hard to believe what little H&S content the course had. I am only guessing at a possible reason for having poor quality staff-probably freelance on a fixed fee-to take on jobs that in three instances have required help from the emergancy services. The first time its an accident-the second time its coincedence but the third time its inexcusable! In my opinion,of course.....

To be honest most sailors take H&S quite seriously. That is why most of us are not accident statistics yet still manage to get around the world, and enjoy ourselves. H&S is only a bad thing when it is applied improperly. Good H&S gets the job done safely with maximum enjoyment for the participants.
 

Tintin

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Statement from Hot Liquid....NOT

"Clearly the accident throws up valid questions about the skippers competence and our safety procedures.

"We will work with MAIB to piece together thoroughly the sequence of events and from this it will become clear what changes we need to make, if any, to how we run our company. It would be appreciated if the current conjecture could cease so we can establish the facts without anyone feeling they have to hide anything.

"Our Skipper selection policy will undergo an immediate review to see if we could have foreseen any potential problems.

"And with immediate effect we will be implementing a policy whereby if the forecast conditions or actual conditions exceed F6 then each skipper will be under a duty to get clearance from our Safety Officer to continue (who will assess the risk and the viability of the Plan B) or shall be required to either remain in harbour or return to a safe harbour forthwith.

"Hot Liquid is committed to ensuring it operates safely and will learn from this and the other recent incidents."
 

Kukri

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Statement from Hot Liquid....NOT

"Clearly the accident throws up valid questions about the skippers competence and our safety procedures.

"We will work with MAIB to piece together thoroughly the sequence of events and from this it will become clear what changes we need to make, if any, to how we run our company. It would be appreciated if the current conjecture could cease so we can establish the facts without anyone feeling they have to hide anything.

"Our Skipper selection policy will undergo an immediate review to see if we could have foreseen any potential problems.

"And with immediate effect we will be implementing a policy whereby if the forecast conditions or actual conditions exceed F6 then each skipper will be under a duty to get clearance from our Safety Officer to continue (who will assess the risk and the viability of the Plan B) or shall be required to either remain in harbour or return to a safe harbour forthwith.

"Hot Liquid is committed to ensuring it operates safely and will learn from this and the other recent incidents."

Amazing: that's practically a paraphrase of the press release that I put out recently following an MAIB report on a serious accident involving one of our ships. ;)

Tilman was quoting Milton, by the way. He was phenomenally well read; I once put a quote from Spenser in the log book and when I came back on watch I found he had corrected it!
 

grumpy_o_g

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Inshore Waters Forecast:
For coastal areas up to 12 miles offshore from Monday 02 January 2012 at 1200 UTC until Tuesday 03 January 2012 at 1200 UTC
Selsey Bill to Lyme Regis - Strong winds are forecast 24 hour forecast: West or southwest 5 to 7, increasing gale 8 to storm 10 for a time later. Moderate, becoming very rough, occasionally high. Showers at first, occasional rain later. Good, occasionally moderate or poor. Outlook: West 5 to 7, occasionally gale 8 near headlands. Very rough occasionally high, becoming moderate or rough. Rain or drizzle, then mainly fair. Moderate, occasionally poor, becoming good.

Shipping Forecast:
The shipping forecast issued by the Met Office, on behalf of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, on Monday 02 January 2012 at 1130 UTC
Thames, Dover, Wight, Portland, Plymouth West or southwest 5 to 7, increasing gale 8 to storm 10 later. Moderate or rough, occasionally very rough or high. Squally showers, rain later. Good, occasionally poor




Perhaps he looked at a different synoptic/forecast to every one that I saw and thought that it accurately predicted the exact track and speed of the depression? Still doesn't make sense considering what he publicly said before setting out though. Complete and utter moron is all I can assume. Storm winds forecast; potential lee shore; very few if any decent bolt holes; inexperienced and unfamiliar crew; crew new to boat; boat not exactly sea-kindly or designed for rough weather; conflicts of interest (deadline to meet; customers to keep happy; boss to keep happy). Apart from an impending nuclear attack I don't think there's a warning sign missing... I'm normally the first to shout "let's wait for the facts" but I honestly can't see what the hell anyone was doing there, never mind a professional skipper.



Thanks to Dr Simon (Keeling) for the inshore/shipping forecasts as I pinched them from his emailed forecast - as it's only some public domain content rather than the really useful bit (his interpretation of the data) I've taken the liberty of assuming he won't mind. I've got the synoptics as well but won't put them up without his permission as it's from weatherweb.net. Suffice to say the 12Z03012012 chart shows a 950 mb depression centred more or less on John O'Groats. The 1000 mb isobar pretty much follows the South Coast and the associated cold front runs smack through the middle of the North Sea, cuts across East Anglia and crosses the coast around Southampton. It's at least a couple thousand miles long, extending well out into the Atlantic and off the Western side of the chart beyond Biscay. In short a text book North Atlantic deep winter depression.
 

madmitch

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i think some perspective is required, i have done 3000 miles with this company, they are not perfect but who is if we really wan't to pick fault, in my experiance they were the best sailing school i have come across, Manning in particular was one of the most concientious and safety aware priniples i have met thus far. Maybe we should be looking at the rigour of the rya qualification, i have seen incompetance from ymi's that would have had me dismiss people in my factory on hse grounds alone....and from people with a "gold standard qualification" the skippers get what? £100 a day, would you take a risk for £100- less than the cost of filling up the car!? I would hate to see one of the better companies hauled over the coals for something that may well not their fault, lets wait and get some facts first!

Chris,

Derbyshire
 

Juan Twothree

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From the other thread I think someone pointed out that the video was later on in the rescue when conditions had eased. The lifeboat doing the tow in the video came on the scene later I think.


Correct.

The video was taken by Dover Lifeboat, which didn't launch until later.

The first lifeboat on scene was Dungeness, which doesn't have a camera fitted.
 

rotrax

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To be honest most sailors take H&S quite seriously. That is why most of us are not accident statistics yet still manage to get around the world, and enjoy ourselves. H&S is only a bad thing when it is applied improperly. Good H&S gets the job done safely with maximum enjoyment for the participants.

Quite! It is a pity that H&S was hardly mentioned during the week of training.IIRC the main point was that the food prep. and cooking was a bit of an issue unless the crew did it as Jason Manning had no Certificates from a food hygine course. He did stress the importance of always having a good hand hold-dont let go with one hand untill you have a hold with the other. That was about it.
 
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