Hoisting a storm jib

[Guest]

In the posting below about sea anchors, James Jermaine remarks that for local Channel coasting a sea anchor is not as important as a storm jib "as long as you have a proper means of hoisting it if you have roller furling..." Good point. I have roller furling and undoubtedly need a storm jib on my 30-foot Holman ketch. So what would be the best way to hoist it?

 

[Guest]

A removable inner forestay

I just fitted a removable inner forestay to my boat (a 10m Van de Stadt) - it was very easy and not expensive.

The top of the forestay is mounted just below the masthead, clearing the furled Genoa by a few inches. The bottom of the forestay has a Hyfield lever (£110) which quickly and simply clips to the stemhead fitting.

The dual benefit comes from being able to set a proper working jib in winds above 25 knots when it's time to reef the genoa. Even though Jeckells make a lovely roller reefing headsail, it is not perfect in strong winds.

The job was made easier by already having a spare jib halyard rigged.

 

[Guest]

I agree with Humperdinck. A removable forestay is the simplest answer but you will need a strongpoint on the foredeck to attach it too and I mean a strongpoint. A simple "handy billy" tackle should be enough to put enough tension on the forestay to get a reasonably tight luff. You may also need to consider a second pair of appropriately placed fareleads for the storm jibs sheets.

 

[Guest]

It all depends on the type of rig you have - with a masthead rig a detachable inner forestay makes a lot of sense, even if you can't get a particularly tight luff. Foe a 3/4 rig there is no such easy way out. Though I have a storm jib I've never had to use it finding that the No4 hoisted on the roller gear is quite adequate and gives me a far more variable sail area. Frankly, in 52 knots my storm jib is too big, a factor which came out time and time again during the hobart/sydney enquiry.

 

[Guest]

It all depends on the type of rig you have - with a masthead rig a detachable inner forestay makes a lot of sense, even if you can't get a particularly tight luff. Foe a 3/4 rig there is no such easy way out. Though I have a storm jib I've never had to use it finding that the No4 hoisted on the roller gear is quite adequate and gives me a far more variable sail area. Frankly, in 52 knots my storm jib is too big, a feature which came out time and time again during the hobart/sydney enquiry.

 

[Guest]

Agree entirely with this.

What you need with a storm jib is ease of hoisting. Trying to do anything at the forepeak in rough conditions is to be avoided, specially if a roller foresail is fitted.

A storm jib should be sheeted wide.

 

[Guest]

Re: Agree entirely with this.

I have a foam luff fitted to my genny which is set on conventional (Selden) furling gear. The sail takes up quite a reasonable shape when rolled down to storm jib size with the fairleads pushed well forward. I have a spare forestay (which I have never had to deploy in anger) For coastal and cross channel work I am increasingly beginning to consider that this set up, although obviously not as efficient as a proper storm jib,is, on balance, safer to deploy than a storm jib because it obviates the need to leave the cockpit. Thats where(in my experience) the real danger lies in heavy weather.

 

[Guest]

Tension

With a wire luff (which I presume all storm jobs have) I think the removeable "babystay" is there mainly for control. Tension will come from the halliard winch.

 

[Guest]

Please explain...

Sorry if I'm being dim. Humperdink suggests setting up a forestay between the masthead (just below the existing forestay) and the stemhead fitting, but surely it then has to go around and in front of the furling gear and its drum. Can't quite see it!

Also, Charles speaks of hoisting his no.4 jib "on the furling gear." Can't see this, either, though it sounds as if it might be a good idea. Would you mind shedding a bit more light?

The plans of my (1969) boat show an inner forestay that was never fitted. What say this was reinstated as a detachable fitting so it could be set up for the trips when you might need it. On a ketch, it seems to me an inner storm jib with a reefed mizzen would be a great combination.

The boat is new to me and I have a lot of learning to do. Thanks for your input.

 

[Guest]

If you go for the extra inner forestay have a look at any sailing school yacht, as they are required to heave one to conform to the Code of Practice. You will get a host of ideas about what to do.

 

[Guest]

Re: Tension

Rope halyards stretch so that it'll be impossible to maintain luff tension. I minimised that by fitting a dedicated low stretch Spectra halyard. Another solution might be a wire halyard. More tension can be got in the inner forestay by easing the backstay a little before connecting it, then retensioning.

When sailing any distance I keep the inner forestay rigged with a No.4 hanked to it and furled on the deck with dedicated sheets bent on, ready to hoist at a moment's notice. It makes tacking awkward - have to roll away roller genoa to tack, but this only takes a moment and on longer passages one is rarely tacking frequently.

Otherwise setting up the inner forestay, bending on sail and sheets etc in a seaway would be a major palava.

 

[Guest]

Probably not.

You would be surprised how much tension you would have to put on with the halyard winch to get a straight luff. We have done trials in 40 knots of wind in a 37 foot yacht and, with a wire luffed sail and a wire halyard couldn't get sufficient tension to get the sail to work to windward. As soon as it was set on a taut stay, it drove the boat well.

 

[Guest]

Re: Storm Jib without a forestay?

I asked this question of a local sailmaker yesterday - looking for the simplest option to comply with ORC rules. He suggested setting a storm jib without a stay, hoisting it using the existing spinnaker halliard. Apparently a number of 'coded' charter boats use this method and it is accepted as satisfying the requirements.

Obviously windward performance with this set up would be sub-optimal - but would it do any good at all, or is it just bending the rules.

 

[Guest]

Some thoughts

The inner forestay system, whether detatchable or not, is the best answer, undoubtedly, but is not always practical. In my view the stay should be tacked down as far aft as possible and should go no higher up the mast than is necessary to get sufficient height to set the sail, bearing in mind that the tack of the sail should be some distance off the deck to get the foot clear of breaking seas adn allow good visibility under it. This keeps the centres of effort close to the centre of lateral resistance and improves handling. Practical considerations such as the existing staying and shrouds are an important factor here and only an experienced rigger can advise in individual cases.

In the case of a ketch rig, yes, the reefed mizzen and storm jib combination is extremely effective. However, despite what I have just said, you will have to fly the jib well forward to balance the effort of the mizzen or you will get a lot of weather helm.

If you have a roller reefing genoa, I can't see much point in going for the option of dropping it and hoisting a No 4 jib in its place. You are also faced with the danger of having to unroll it get it down in conditions which may well cause damage to the sail, rig and crew.

If you can't rig an inner forestay, there are alternatives, one of which I have on my boat. One is to set the storm jib flying. This is simple and works off the wind, but not if you are faced with a long windward beat or a battle off a lee shore. It works, as well, if your sole aim is to heave to comfortably.

Another is to have eyelets put into the luff of the jib and run a continuous lashing round the rolled up jib (it only needs to go round three or four times down the whole length). This is the system I have. It works under test conditions (Force 8 just but a flat sea) but you have to practice with it to understand some of the little tricks.

A third is similar but involves having a sleeve sewn onto the luff of the sail which is wrapped round the rolled genoa and hooked back to the sail. It is more expensive, and the friction makes it harder to hoist, but once up it is extremely efficient since it tends to set like an aerofoil.

If your boat was designed to have a cutter stay, I would certainly go for that option. Make sure it has sufficient height to accommodate the luff length of the storm jib, but also bear in mind the very true words of Mike B (was it?) about storm jibs which are too large. Your sail maker should be able to advise. Err towards the smaller end of any size band he might suggest.

If I can help any further please email me: james_jermain@hotmail.com

The sail itself must. onviously, be of very havy material, triple stitched and, preferably, coloured international orange so that it is easily seen

 

[Guest]

Hmm ... doubts about some of this.

Storm jibs have two distinct duties, and so ideally you need two. (One that reefs may be an option).

Type 1 is, in combination with a tri, to enable you to beat off a lee shore in a gale (F8-9). It needs to be of a reasonable size for this, and to set well, though not of course close-winded.

Type 2 is as a line of last defence in open water, either for heaving-to, or to provide a little control when running off downwind (with warps/drogue). For these purposes it should be really, really small.

In either situation I have grave doubts about flying a storm jib, for two reasons.

First, the task of hoisting a sail in rough waters and gale force winds cannot be underestimated. The last thing you need is a sail going up in an uncontrolled manner, flogging and thrashing, potentially getting tangled. Second, if it is to be used for beating off, it must be set well, far easier under the conditions if it is set on a stay. Third, once up, the loads on a storm jib when heaved to in an F10+ must be seen to be believed. The extra support of a stay is absolutely essential, but one danger with a temporary inner forestay is that if it is not supported by runners, there is a real risk the mast will be bent.

You are welcome to your wrap around forestay systems - but they are not for me. I think that a single storm sail is best close in to the mast - a stay sail rather than a jib. (a) It can then be set lower down without risk of taking quite so much hammering from the sea; (b) it is much more easily reached and handled from a safe position near the mast, with no need to work at the forepeak.

 

[Guest]

Re: Probably not.

What's that new rope that has so little stretch you can use it to replace standing rigging. Costs about the same as 1x19 stainless

 

[Guest]

Re: Probably not.

Suspect you may be thinking of Spectra (see my posting above). Has the advantage of doubling as a spare forestay if the other two fail!!!

 

[Guest]

\'Flying\' a sail, and trisails.

Sorry, perhaps I should have made it clear I meant 'to set the storm-jib flying', i.e. hoisted attached by the corners only, and not along the luff. This is what I am recommending against.

I've never had to sail off a lee shore in a gale, and never hope to! But in trials my yacht will make ground to windward with storm stay-sail and tri in a F7. On open water its necessary to sail rather free to keep moving. The tri is just a bit more comfortable than a triple-reefed main, but in practice it is the latter we have always used in those conditions. A trisail is not essential.

Only once has our yacht needed beating off in a F9 (just, at the Owers). On that occasion it was my partner sailing without me. As Sinbad suggested in the thread on sea-anchors, easiest is to motor, just off the wind, with the storm staysail set. It should be sheeted in hard to provide stability and keep the yacht moving through waves. But care must be taken not to let the yacht heel over beyond the tolerance of the engine.

This was EXTREMELY wet and uncomfortable - wind against tide couldn't have helped any - and she moved into the lee of the Isle of Wight with a very considerable sense of relief. (Peter B. may recall this story, as it won her a small prize for perseverence in attending a CSSA rally).

 

[Guest]

Answers for james J and Pugwash

The points made are valid - it's no good trying to change headsails in 40+ knots - so you've got to think ahead and change down in plenty of time, before wind and sea get up. That goes for whatever system you adopt.

On a 3/4 rig, putting in a lower forestay without a running backstay to balance it will cause considerable "panting" of the mast with probable rig failure. Those who have experienced storm-force winds will remember being becalmed in the troughs and overcanvassed on the crests, especially off the wind.

James is very right about having to get the foot well clear of breaking sea - I'd be very concerned about any babystay lower mounting pulling out, because the foresail foot needs to be at about boom height to avoid filling with heads of sea.

In answer to your question Pugwash - my No 4, which is essentially a yankee-cut jib, goes on a 300 mm wire foot strop, with a further lashing, at the top of the strop, to prevent the luff rope pulling out of the foil. It balances perfectly and drives the boat quite adequately, with full main, in 25 knots and with two rolls on the standard Rotostay (well standard for 36' boat) is down to the size of the storm jib.

Whilst I understand Andrew's point about wide-sheeting storm foresails, I take a diametrically opposite view and have far narrower sheeting angles than my normal genoa leads, being a forward continuation of the blade-jib tracks. I have had to considerably stiffen these up (going up one size on track and block).

Most of the proposals I've seen for temporary forestays strike me as being underspecified for the shock loadings they'll experience, (as a rough rule of thumb x3 compared to a steadily applied load).

Like Andrew I've never had to claw my way off a lee-shore in an F11, (and intend to avoid the experience)but I've quite frequently made to windward in F8, and found that your tacking angle of 70 in still water has gone up to 110 ( and then only if you turn on the top of the wave).

I suspect the trysail rule came about because of boom breakage - I've got a 4th reef in my main in preference to a trysail - but you have the b-factor of needing a separate track and some way of stowing the boom securely.

In all of this I guess it's the crew who are the weakest link, not the boat, the rig, the sails or the storm canvas.

 

[Guest]

Re: Hmm ... doubts about some of this.

I agree with you entirely that a wrap-around system is a second best option for when it is difficult to rig an inner forestay as it is on Sweet Lucy. Obviously, if the top of the stay is taken to a point on the mast where there is no shroud support, a runner will be necessary.

I also agree, as I hope I indicated, that an unsupported jib is only of use in moderately severe conditions and when off the wind.

I have never used a tri-sail in anger but I have heard that they are almost totally ineffective when trying to get to windward. What is your experience? I am interested in this because ORC Category 1 insists on a tri-sail and I have one for that reason. I can't realy see when I am going to use it unless and until I break my boom.

I don't think carrying two storm jibs is practical for most people and I think a reefing storm jib is a liability for the reasons you suggest - the danger of working on a foredeck in a gale.

I am slightly confused by your statement that yu ahve grave doubts about flying a storm jib for two reasons. What would you do instead - or is your answer in the last paragraph when you talk about a stay sail? This, surely, is what I said in my posting.