Has anyone downsized there engines in former working Tugs?

[Nathan Taylor]

I sent a link to this thread to a pal of mine who is an experienced marine engineer - he has also owned and operated a commercial single screw tug in the past, along with a couple of former North Sea coasters that he used for trading around the Caribbean with.

His tug had a pair of Lister Blackstone ERS8 engines (ie same as yours) going into a twin input / single output gearbox. They were 600 hp each, running at 750 rpm, and the shaft was turning a fixed pitch propeller 9' in diameter with a 6' pitch.

My friend offered the following comments after reading the thread so far.

"I would change the shaft and the propeller as the pitch is not going to be economical for running free.
It will be a straight 8 Lister and may run at up to 1,000 rpm. We were 600 hp at 750 rpm.
A 5” shaft needs power to turn and there is no need for a shaft this size if the power is cut by 50 or more percent.
Re how he has a nozzle fitted already, I presume that he will want to keep it (?).
A Lister gearbox is often by MWD (Modern Wheel Drive) and very robust with excellent clutches (if in good nick) but they sometimes need hydraulic power from an external source if there is no pump mounted to the engine."

And he would agree with the owner of Revenge re simply getting the Lister up and running again.

Re your comment 'She currently has a ^00HP Lister Blackstone in her that combined with the Aux and air tanks there is not much room left. ' - if you get rid of the Lister engine and the compressed air cylinders (for engine starting) you should have some more room in the ER for sure.
But will it be usable room, eg suitable for conversion into extra accommodation?
Remember that you will still need to have space for a generator (and ideally two), a work bench, all the various pumps that you will need to keep....... and I cannot see that there will be very much extra effective space if you do take the main machinery out (and this will be a LOT of work).

Edit - a PS - in view of how the vessel is now 62 years old, do you have any record of the last ultrasound inspection that was done on the hull plating? And / or details of what was most probably replaced the last time she was in dry dock?
My friend told me how even 20 years ago the cost of dry docking one of their coasters (700 tonnes deadweight) and replacing steelwork as required at a relatively cheap (re labour) drydock in the Caribbean was always in excess of US$ 100,000.
OK, the dry dock fee would be less for a much smaller tug, but the cost of replacing steel plate in the hull bottom is still the same.

Thanks you for the very good advice. I have kind of settled now at keeping the set up as is. Tom from Revenge is going to give me an idea of cost in getting her up and running on her own steam on Wednesday. Hes a marine engineer and knows the set up with Regarder as similar to his.
I have attached a pic of the gearbox. hard to see the scale here, Its bloody massive.

 

[38mess]

Yes that is a much better price then the other one. Once i have some sound advice on this i will make a decision. Not quite sure why someone would ask 40k for a lump. I cant see him selling it TBH, seems rediculous

Yes it seems excessive. He's probably rebuilt it from scratch.

 

[Assassin]

Rubbish, he is looking for a decent profit and hoping for a sucker; I do a lot with Gardner engines and you can get decent engines for less than half this amount.

 

[Assassin]

Currently working on an old coaster with a mate, well, I am doing the work in its steel hull and superstructure and he is providing endless supplies of coffee.

His is apparently decades older than yours and has an odd configuration of 3 engines and according to an old guy whose father worked on the boat, according to him it ran 3 engines and when loaded they used the outer engines to haul the boat and used the third engine if it was overloaded, which he suggests was all its working life he remembers, and they used the central engine for running unloaded when empty to save fuel.

 

[38mess]

Rubbish, he is looking for a decent profit and hoping for a sucker; I do a lot with Gardner engines and you can get decent engines for less than half this amount.

Is this directed at my reply?

 

[PilotWolf]

Beautiful boat I always wanted to do this . Looked at various boats but most had engines removed though.

W.

 

[burgundyben]

Thanks you for the very good advice. I have kind of settled now at keeping the set up as is. Tom from Revenge is going to give me an idea of cost in getting her up and running on her own steam on Wednesday. Hes a marine engineer and knows the set up with Regarder as similar to his.
I have attached a pic of the gearbox. hard to see the scale here, Its bloody massive.

I reckon that is the best way forward. Will certainly have the nicest result. Re-engineering the whole thing with a smaller engine could bleed a lot of money.

Hopefully the cost of getting it running with the big Lister won't be too painful.

 

[oldgit]

My brother bought and used to live aboard an old tug called the James Ward.
The family "inherited it" a little later in unfortunate circumstances, I had to dispose of it.
To put it bluntly fortunately eventually somebody along came with rosy ideas about restoration.
It would have cost us money to scrap the thing.
Wish you luck with your project ...but beware.
My brother was an eternal optimist and purchased his tug with a plan not unlike yours, it came back from Bristol under its own steam.

First of all came the task of breaking out several tons of concrete used for ballast, original (valuable)iron ballast had been removed by previous owner(s) and sold for scrap because they assumed entire boat was going for scrap anyway.
This revealed that the stem and stern plating and the most of the structure underneath was as rotten as a pear.
He cut off the front of an old lighter and without pausing for breath put the boat into a makeshift "dry dock" and work commenced, of course the more he looked the more he found, took 2 years in the end.

Then work began on stripping down the engine, bear in mind my brother had worked on big diesels commercially and knew just about all the old boys who had worked on these engines over the past half century and where any bits/expertise could to be found. He had a workshop and could machine parts, weld/ cut , fabricate etc so was ahead of the game there.

I would be budgeting very very carefully indeed before spending anything at all on this boat it will be a never ending project .Assume some sort of survey was done before purchase especially on the hull and what about insurance ?
If the thing sinks, somebody will be coming after you for salvage. Think in the tens of thousands
Presume you have found a long term mooring to carry on all this work, most locations will not want anybody descaling welding or grinding on their doorstep. especially if there is any white glass fibre within wind assisted steel partical range. !

The tug KENT was recently out of the water for insurance survey, slipped locally at Toughs in Chatham dockyard at mates rates.
It cost £8K for slip/paint/ anodes.
All labour was FOC by the 8 or ten "odd" blokes who keep the old girl afloat..... next project the generators need sorting.

 

[jmnapier]

Keep the original set up. So much more satisfying. Maybe repitch the prop to increase efficiency and economy when off load. Saw the boat on eBay, very interesting project. If I was a multi-millionaire it’s the sort of thing I would have in my collection. Best of luck with it

 

[Portofino]

As per Oldgit ^^^ leave the power plant for now and use the piggy bank in the first year to access , repair , restore or what ever the hull structure in terms of seaworthiness.

If there is anything left after that come back with re power Q s .

 

[Nathan Taylor]

My brother bought and used to live aboard an old tug called the James Ward.
The family "inherited it" a little later in unfortunate circumstances, I had to dispose of it.
To put it bluntly fortunately eventually somebody along came with rosy ideas about restoration.
It would have cost us money to scrap the thing.
Wish you luck with your project ...but beware.
My brother was an eternal optimist and purchased his tug with a plan not unlike yours, it came back from Bristol under its own steam.

First of all came the task of breaking out several tons of concrete used for ballast, original (valuable)iron ballast had been removed by previous owner(s) and sold for scrap because they assumed entire boat was going for scrap anyway.
This revealed that the stem and stern plating and the most of the structure underneath was as rotten as a pear.
He cut off the front of an old lighter and without pausing for breath put the boat into a makeshift "dry dock" and work commenced, of course the more he looked the more he found, took 2 years in the end.

Then work began on stripping down the engine, bear in mind my brother had worked on big diesels commercially and knew just about all the old boys who had worked on these engines over the past half century and where any bits/expertise could to be found. He had a workshop and could machine parts, weld/ cut , fabricate etc so was ahead of the game there.

I would be budgeting very very carefully indeed before spending anything at all on this boat it will be a never ending project .Assume some sort of survey was done before purchase especially on the hull and what about insurance ?
If the thing sinks, somebody will be coming after you for salvage. Think in the tens of thousands
Presume you have found a long term mooring to carry on all this work, most locations will not want anybody descaling welding or grinding on their doorstep. especially if there is any white glass fibre within wind assisted steel partical range. !

The tug KENT was recently out of the water for insurance survey, slipped locally at Toughs in Chatham dockyard at mates rates.
It cost £8K for slip/paint/ anodes.
All labour was FOC by the 8 or ten "odd" blokes who keep the old girl afloat..... next project the generators need sorting.

Thanks for the reply Oldgit.
I have seen quite a lot of pics of James Ward. She was a lovely Tug.
I am quite aware of what a financial mess im about to get balls deep into. From the people I have talked to Regarder was in a lot better shape then Revenge. At the time Peter Duggan wanted 15k for Regarder and Revenge was bought for under 5k.
By the end of the week I will have about as much information as a can get and wlll have conformation of a mooring at either the King George or Cody Dock. Without the mooring I will not be able to take on this project as mooring needs to be near by in order for me to be able to work on her every night after work to get her done in my 2 year window.
As for ballast, Im pretty sure that all the machinery is its main ballast as there must be 10-15 ton of engines. My last boat had been over plated then screeded with concrete. This turned out to be a nightmare and devalued the boat quite a bit but in the end still made a tidy profit on her.
I have priced Regarder up as scrap as a backup and would make one her more then the 9k outlay. This is not what me or anyone that knows her wants bet its a realistic safety net should it go tits up .
Boats are always a never ending project but for me its about staying ahead of the game. Im quite handy with machining and have access to a fair few workshops and very skilled engineers and already people are offering me hel to get her back how she was so i will be taking them up on such offers in order to crack on with her as fast as possible. I want to get her on hard standing for the 2 years well i work on her. This allows me to not have to worry about her sinking while i work on her. I have access to heavy lifting equipment at a good price so thats my main option.
As son as i get her on Hardstanding i will be doing a survey but its not practical to do currently where she is. I would like todo some work on this before a survey as she will also be valued on the survey so the tidier the better. From then i can get insurance but wont need it if its out the water. So far I have only paid the deposit and waiting on the engineers to give me a rough idea of what im really in for.
I will keep you posted as the events unfold tis week.
Once again thanks for your great advice.

 

[Nathan Taylor]

Here are some more pics of Regarder and the other boats at General Marine. Most of these pics were taken when Revenge was there too.
General Marine

 

[Bajansailor]

Nathan, you said "As son as i get her on Hardstanding i will be doing a survey but its not practical to do currently where she is. "

Have you had a GOOD look through the bilges? What do they look like?
Are they rusty, or pitted (perhaps painted over)?
Or do they appear to be in 'good condition'?
Are there any signs of previous re-plating efforts?
Are you confident that you could wallop anywhere in the bilge with a pointed hammer and it won't go through the plating?
Do you know what the original thickness of the plate was?

I met a young lad here a few months ago - he had just bought a steel 50' ketch, Dutch built in the 60's for what appeared (to him, then) to be a veritable song (US$10,000). He knew she needed some work doing on her, and he wanted to insure her, so he called me re a survey.
She was in the water - I suggested hauling out here, and then we could do a full survey on her including the hull bottom.
I was worried about what the bottom was like just by looking in the bilges.
Anyways, he decided not to haul out here, and sailed for the Grenadines. While in Carriacou and still afloat he was investigating the hull bottom plating under the saloon - and without much effort he managed to poke a hole in it. Managed to temporarily plug it, and then arranged a haul out in Tyrell Bay asap. Started hammer testing the bottom, and it went through in many areas.
He and his crew had just sailed on a 100 mile overnight passage with not much more than a combination of rust and paint keeping the water out in various parts of the hull.
I bumped into his crew here last week, and was updated re the above. Was told by the crew that he had cut out most of the hull bottom, and was about to re-plate it.
If you have to renew plating on your tug it will be on a much grander scale. Be careful.

 

[oldgit]

Just had an update on the " James Ward "
It is now lying up at Chiswick on the Thames , nothing appears to have been done in the seven years since we last saw her being towed away.
Caveat Emptor.

 

[Assassin]

Is this directed at my reply?

No, the seller of the engine for profiteering.

 

[Assassin]

Nathan, you said "As son as i get her on Hardstanding i will be doing a survey but its not practical to do currently where she is. "

Have you had a GOOD look through the bilges? What do they look like?
Are they rusty, or pitted (perhaps painted over)?
Or do they appear to be in 'good condition'?
Are there any signs of previous re-plating efforts?
Are you confident that you could wallop anywhere in the bilge with a pointed hammer and it won't go through the plating?
Do you know what the original thickness of the plate was?

I met a young lad here a few months ago - he had just bought a steel 50' ketch, Dutch built in the 60's for what appeared (to him, then) to be a veritable song (US$10,000). He knew she needed some work doing on her, and he wanted to insure her, so he called me re a survey.
She was in the water - I suggested hauling out here, and then we could do a full survey on her including the hull bottom.
I was worried about what the bottom was like just by looking in the bilges.
Anyways, he decided not to haul out here, and sailed for the Grenadines. While in Carriacou and still afloat he was investigating the hull bottom plating under the saloon - and without much effort he managed to poke a hole in it. Managed to temporarily plug it, and then arranged a haul out in Tyrell Bay asap. Started hammer testing the bottom, and it went through in many areas.
He and his crew had just sailed on a 100 mile overnight passage with not much more than a combination of rust and paint keeping the water out in various parts of the hull.
I bumped into his crew here last week, and was updated re the above. Was told by the crew that he had cut out most of the hull bottom, and was about to re-plate it.
If you have to renew plating on your tug it will be on a much grander scale. Be careful.

It certainly will and I am proof of that, you will also need good cutting and welding equipment and not the cheaper DIY stuff aimed at the small industrial user, you will go through consumables as if they are going out of fashion and to date I have used 165Kg of 1.6mm MIG wire alone and 2 boxes of grinding discs (9" and 100 per box) just to get rid of the crud in the areas simply worked on.

I find hydraulics beneficial for thicker plate along with several weld on brackets as the brackets can be welded on and the 50 tonne ram connected to it to finally massage plates exactly into position and finally shape them to get an exact match in their profiles, I pre fab the weld on brackets from scratch from scrap material so I have plenty to hand.

One other suggestion is to use etch weld on cleaned areas and new plate as this gives excellent protection and you can weld through it, this holds back the corrosion and can be used as an etch primer for most paints.

 

[rickwales]

Thanks you for the very good advice. I have kind of settled now at keeping the set up as is. Tom from Revenge is going to give me an idea of cost in getting her up and running on her own steam on Wednesday. Hes a marine engineer and knows the set up with Regarder as similar to his.
I have attached a pic of the gearbox. hard to see the scale here, Its bloody massive.

I have been involved in a couple of engine swaps on commercial and military vessels, the last one being downsizing a patrol boat from 4000 hp down to 700 , it’s not without it’s problems and you will need a prop and possibly shaft change

 

[burgundyben]

Seems to have gone a little quiet.

 

[Assassin]

This is the exact issue my mate has, the current restoration has several clues to different engine configurations over the years and the metalwork suggests it has one large engine, it had two smaller engines, and it had three engines; at what time nobody knows.

He has to make some serious decisions as he has three shafts and three props, any of these can be used as they are seemingly in good condition and it could have a single large engine or two smaller engines and he has to consider them carefully as at least one of the shafts has to removed and the hull plates fitted to fill the hole.

In terms of weight, he isn't going to throw a couple of hundred tonnes of cargo into it, his weight will be fairly fixed, and is he intending to put to sea or stay inshore, and how is he intending ballasting the vessel were my immediate questions as this will determine both the engine and fuel tanks locations, the size of the fuel tanks, and he could have twin modern diesels on shafts meaning only one shaft needs removing, and a pair of modern diesels will be lighter than one large old lump. He would have some flexibility if he puts to sea rather than remain inshore, he has two engines if one breaks down, and he can use two large fuel tanks each feeding their own engine with another large auxiliary tank further forwards for ballast, and the capability for it to feed both fuel tanks through carefully constructed valve arrangements.

 

[rickwales]

This is the exact issue my mate has, the current restoration has several clues to different engine configurations over the years and the metalwork suggests it has one large engine, it had two smaller engines, and it had three engines; at what time nobody knows.

He has to make some serious decisions as he has three shafts and three props, any of these can be used as they are seemingly in good condition and it could have a single large engine or two smaller engines and he has to consider them carefully as at least one of the shafts has to removed and the hull plates fitted to fill the hole.

In terms of weight, he isn't going to throw a couple of hundred tonnes of cargo into it, his weight will be fairly fixed, and is he intending to put to sea or stay inshore, and how is he intending ballasting the vessel were my immediate questions as this will determine both the engine and fuel tanks locations, the size of the fuel tanks, and he could have twin modern diesels on shafts meaning only one shaft needs removing, and a pair of modern diesels will be lighter than one large old lump. He would have some flexibility if he puts to sea rather than remain inshore, he has two engines if one breaks down, and he can use two large fuel tanks each feeding their own engine with another large auxiliary tank further forwards for ballast, and the capability for it to feed both fuel tanks through carefully constructed valve arrangements.

To ask such a technical question it needs a lot of technical information to give a answer that’s anything better than a Educated guess it needs a proper calculation carried out otherwise he could make some expensive mistakes