Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[Caladh]

Re: The Cruising Tax is now LAW and has been implemented since Friday 16th November

So - do all Greek boat owners (all Greeks infact) have a VAT registration number or is this a tax id. number ?

Chris's Item 7. above "I have tried to register - but I cannot as it requires that I enter a VAT number. I got no further. - I am not a business and am not conducting any business so have no need of a VAT number."

 

[Davy_S]

Re: The Cruising Tax is now LAW and has been implemented since Friday 16th November

So - do all Greek boat owners (all Greeks infact) have a VAT registration number or is this a tax id. number ?

Probably not very helpful but, i have used the mytaxisnet site in the past, i had a Greek tax number, not a vat number, my Greek registered boat (sold now) had nothing to do with a vat No. you could pay bills on the site using your Greek tax number only.

 

[alexsailor]

I love taxes ?

?

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: The Cruising Tax is now LAW and has been implemented since Friday 16th November

I now have the details of the tax, but the file in PDf is too large to attached here. The main issue is that the tax is payable by any vessel in Greek Waters on the 26th November - there does not appear to be be any transitional arrangements......(sounds familiar!)

The key issues will be
Greek Cruising Tax - TEPAH
Summary of main Issues.

The law on this was launched on 16^th of November 2018. It requires payment of the new Tax within 10 days of the announcement date; that is the 26^th November 2018.
The Tax will be paid by login on to the www.aade.gr web site and registering under the TAXISnet – the Greek Tax system. This is a Greek website in Greek. However, Google provides a sufficient translation to enable you to enter your details.
BUT
You will need first to register. I have tried this but it insists on having a VAT registration number, which of course I don’t have.
The following are the major issue noted so far relating to this tax

1. That vessel owners will have to pay from the 26th of November 2018 even though they are not using the boat, ie they will have to pay at least up till MAY when they start sailing and then monthly from there. There does not appear to be an annual discount.
2. That the vessel owner will have to pay the whole of the Month of November even though it is the 26th of the month. (Minor issue)
3. That the vessel owner is in England or elsewhere in the world without any means of registering or paying.
4. That the vessel owner will only - as the law allows - want to pay for the months when he/she will be sailing the yacht in Greek Waters.
5. That the owner/user of the vessel has had no chance to put the vessel OUT OF USE as is required so as to avoid paying the tax.
6. That the Website for Payment www.aade.gr is in Greek and we are not tax payers in Greece, and do not speak or read Greek.
7. I have tried to register - but I cannot as it requires that I enter a VAT number. I got no further. - I am not a business and am not conducting any business so have no need of a VAT number.
8. What is the method of payment - Credit card? or what other method that a UK Citizen who does not have a Greek bank account will be able to simply make a payment.
9. We have requested in the past that the payments should run from 30 days from the date of entry. There are many reasons that this would be a sensible policy to follow.
10. Manual Payment of Tax. We note that there is a provision for the Manual payment of tax when the owner has been unable to register on line. This is via the Port Police. However this is not much use to us if we are not in Greece

The Law as it is written provides for the impounding of yachts and the imposition of significant fines.

We have emailed the Ministry of Finance to get answers.

Oh dear - time to panic

The Greeks refer to their tax number as a VAT number - I've come across this before. It's called an AFM number (ΑΦΜ - Αριθμο Φορολογικου Μητρωου), the Greeks called it the 'Aa Fe Me' number and you can get one pretty much for the asking from any Greek tax office. You'll need your passport and two photocopies of it as well. Legally if you have a tax number you should submit annual tax returns but I know of nowhere in Greece that enforces that.

 

[vasant]

Re: The Cruising Tax is now LAW and has been implemented since Friday 16th November

just to notice that i have access to the site AADE but the tool (e-TEPAI) is not there......

 

[Chris_Robb]

New Information - no need to Panic

From the Cruising Association forum:

My emails have elicited immediate responses, with the names of the head of department to contact.
I have had a long phone call this morning with the head of Indirect Taxation Implementation, and have been told its a complete cockup. There will be a ministerial announcement later to day initially dealing with the deadline - which is the most important point at this stage. Once we have this we can then carry on to knock off our other point. This department was unaware of the tax being extended to All non Greek flagged pleasure boats until yesterday!
So the word is now Don't do anything and await more information.
Interestingly they have asked if I can come to Athens to talk to them....... I will be passing the hat round

!

On another plane - I notice that the Greeks are now asking for another Bailout....... Clunk Clang - the can was kicked down the road when Mario Draghi said that the crisis was over.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Are you sure that you are not getting mixed up with the Greek registration site?
https://news.gtp.gr/2018/11/16/greece-launches-e-registry-private-professional-boats/

If you would like to pay it, it's here
https://www.aade.gr

The GTP announcement was wrong - it did not include the Non Greek boats. This was a direct result of the Tax Admin (AADE) whose director issued a press release on the 15th November - which did not include the change. He apparently was not aware of it......

 

[Caladh]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Good work Chris - enjoy you free trip to Athens!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Good work Chris - enjoy you free trip to Athens!

Ha ha ! Free???- we always pay our own costs - hence I might need to do some crowd funding!!!!!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

The GTP announcement was wrong - it did not include the Non Greek boats. This was a direct result of the Tax Admin (AADE) whose director issued a press release on the 15th November - which did not include the change. He apparently was not aware of it......

Are non Greek boats going to be included in the tax or non , it sounds to me that they are .
The big stumbling block going to be the 12> mts cost for most of them with over 12mts boats ,
I can't think of many liveaboard with boats under 12 mts .

 

[Crisby]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Ha ha ! Free???- we always pay our own costs - hence I might need to do some crowd funding!!!!!

Chris, if you manage to save me a heap of Euros I‘ll happily chip in!!

Chris

 

[jordanbasset]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

I got a reply from Lefkas Marina about this and they say this is a summary of the provisions

'SUMMARY OF THE CRUISING TAX
(IN EFFECT AS OF 16 NOE 2018)
1. The Cruising Tax (ΤΕΠΑΗ) applies to all pleasure yachts cruising within the Greek territorial waters.
2. The Tax is paid in advance on a monthly or annual base. Yachts arriving within the month should pay the monthly amount for the current month, upon their arrival. Annual payments should be done in December or January.
3. Payment methods : The Tax can be paid through internet (www.aade.gr), at the Port Police, at the Customs Office (for yachts flying a non EU flag, along with the issuance of the TRANSI LOG) and at the Tax Office (for those keeping a Greek VAT No).
4. Amounts
Yachts with L.O.A. from 7,00 m. to 8,00 m. :16 € / month
Yachts with L.O.A. from 8,00 m. to 10,00 m. : 25 € / month
Yachts with L.O.A. from 10,00 m. to 12,00 m. : 33 € / month
Yachts with L.O.A. > 12,00 m. : 8 € / meter / month from the 1st meter
5. Discounts
10% on advance annual payment
25% to charter yachts > 12 m.
20% to yachts > 12 m moored for the whole current year in Greece. Relative declaration is required by the management of the port or marina.
6. No tax is payable when the boat is out of use. This exemption requires the delivery of the yacht’s documents to the Port Police for the identical period.
7. Extra Fines for non-payment of the tax
Yachts with L.O.A. from 7,00 m. to 8,00 m. : 190 €
Yachts with L.O.A. from 8,00 m. to 10,00 m. : 300 €
Yachts with L.O.A. from 10,00 m. to 12,00 m. : 400 €
Yachts with L.O.A. > 12,00 m. : 1.200 €'

As posts above hopefully some one will see sense and at least not impose fines for not being able to pay on time, better still a delay until the technical issues are sorted out

 

[Cariadco]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

So, now having a boat that's 11.9m, I'll be paying just under 400 euros a year (minus annual discount and time not in use) as compared to my old boat of just under 17m, which would be costing just over 1,600 euros!! (minus the annual discount, and I assume the 'not in use' discount isn't used, but the 20% annual usage is)
Suddenly the 12m cutoff has become very important...!!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Are non Greek boats going to be included in the tax or non , it sounds to me that they are .
The big stumbling block going to be the 12> mts cost for most of them with over 12mts boats ,
I can't think of many liveaboard with boats under 12 mts .

All Greek Boats are included - they get taxed twice and it is very expensive for them.

No change to the 12 meter price break - remember its up to 12 meters........ the over 12 is the real increase.

They are due to announce a delay in implementation from the 26th November as it is not possible yet for you to register and pay on line. I will post as soon as anything is known. We also be driving forward ideas to make it easier to register and pay and also to tweak - to make it a monthly ie from date of payment - not 1st to 30th of the month - which is stupid as many yachtsmen will not use the Greek website to register and pay - think of the queues at Port Police on the first day of the month!

The paymnet system to be used is the SEPA money transfer system - I have never heard of it so will need to investigate.

 

[Yngmar]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

The paymnet system to be used is the SEPA money transfer system - I have never heard of it so will need to investigate.

SEPA is widely used for international payments in the EU. Most if not all UK banks will let you do a transfer via their online banking. HSBC definitely does. You just need to know the IBAN of the destination account.

As it looks like this is for real now (and a complete mess in implementation), we're thinking about changing our plans and go somewhere else next year. Luckily haven't ordered the Greek pilot book - plenty of other places in the Med we haven't seen yet, although it is a shame, we were looking forward to Greece, but not for €104 a month entry fee.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Chris, if you manage to save me a heap of Euros I‘ll happily chip in!!

Chris

I dont think I am going to - but I might be able to make it easier for people. I have had lots of people saying they will chip in - thanks to all. I dont at this point think it would add any value unless it is structured and includes the other interested parties such as the Greek Marinas association who we are also constantly in touch with.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

SEPA is widely used for international payments in the EU. Most if not all UK banks will let you do a transfer via their online banking. HSBC definitely does. You just need to know the IBAN of the destination account.

As it looks like this is for real now (and a complete mess in implementation), we're thinking about changing our plans and go somewhere else next year. Luckily haven't ordered the Greek pilot book - plenty of other places in the Med we haven't seen yet, although it is a shame, we were looking forward to Greece, but not for €104 a month entry fee.

It would be a shame - especially to miss out on the Aegean. Look at the other costs/savings - last year in the North Aegean, I only spent about €20 in 2 months for mooring. It is a wonderfull cruising area, especially the Dodecanese - but I really must shut up and not encourage the Ionian crowd to leave there! You know - the winds are so bloody strong when the Meltemi blows that it is a very very dangerous place to sail:disgust:

 

[sailaboutvic]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

SEPA is widely used for international payments in the EU. Most if not all UK banks will let you do a transfer via their online banking. HSBC definitely does. You just need to know the IBAN of the destination account.

As it looks like this is for real now (and a complete mess in implementation), we're thinking about changing our plans and go somewhere else next year. Luckily haven't ordered the Greek pilot book - plenty of other places in the Med we haven't seen yet, although it is a shame, we were looking forward to Greece, but not for €104 a month entry fee.

You forgotten the 50€ for the DEKPA and the 15€ for entering Greece . Speaking to many we know and quite a few have decided not to go back all with boats over 12mts , we too most lightly go back and sail country we not been to for some years , like the SE Spain and south France . And use the 104 € to go towards some nice wine and cheeses, unless there a change in the cost of cruising Greece .

 

[alexsailor]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Eh... I do not think that there will be any significant drop of private cruising yachts In Greece.
Remember last year- CROATIA and its crazy sojourn tax?
A lot of talking but not much has happened...
It will be the same in Greece.
Where else would we go? Spain? Come on...
Greece is still, despite cruising tax, the most nautical friendly country where you can still find a lot of islands, bays etc...
There are no mooring buoys, people are friendly and what is most important: you can still find safe, lonely bay even in August!

Of course I hate fat bureaucrats to whom we pay taxes. But, it will get worse. So let us enjoy Greece as it is, despite cruising tax.
I am sure that in a few years we'll be arguing about crazy mooring fees, etc.

Maybe we'll buy Mythos or two in supermarket rather to enjoy it in taverna. And it is the local people that will get less.... unfortunately

WW3 will be against bureaucrats. If not, I'll start it haha
See you on 27th of June 2019 in Erikoussa

 

[sailaboutvic]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Eh... I do not think that there will be any significant drop of private cruising yachts In Greece.
Remember last year- CROATIA and its crazy sojourn tax?
A lot of talking but not much has happened...
It will be the same in Greece.
Where else would we go? Spain? Come on...
Greece is still, despite cruising tax, the most nautical friendly country where you can still find a lot of islands, bays etc...
There are no mooring buoys, people are friendly and what is most important: you can still find safe, lonely bay even in August!

Of course I hate fat bureaucrats to whom we pay taxes. But, it will get worse. So let us enjoy Greece as it is, despite cruising tax.
I am sure that in a few years we'll be arguing about crazy mooring fees, etc.

Maybe we'll buy Mythos or two in supermarket rather to enjoy it in taverna. And it is the local people that will get less.... unfortunately

WW3 will be against bureaucrats. If not, I'll start it haha
See you on 27th of June 2019 in Erikoussa

Your a great guy Alex but you got it in your head that Greece is the only cruising area worth visiting. Maybe for you 380 miles in a straight line and your there .
I agree with you Greece has hundreds of anchorages and it a great place to cruise ,
But hey there many more in the med ,
There this miffed that every where else is expensive, there no where to anchor and you have to use marina , Croatia s a good example, what a load of bollocks .
manly spread by people who never been there in the first place , people who know us , know that we are not just liveAboard but cruisers , we not the type to get to the Ionian each year find a anchorage and then not move for the next five months before heading back to a marina .we love to cruising and exploring new places .
Croatia did mess it up a bit this year with the increase but so I understand it's coming down next year , by how much I have no idea at yet .
The SE coast of Spain is good area to cruise so is the S France and no its not that expensive if it was we for sure wouldn't go there ,
we anchored in both places in the pass year and not paid a cent .
We anchored in Canns , Marseille, Toulon and Antibs , we even took a berth in the center of Marseille for less then people are paying in Gaios .

The food you buy in the shops and restaurant makes the food you buy in Greece more like prisons slops ,
There also Sardinia and the Balearea islands , Turkey which have almost as many anchorage as Greece ,
I clearly remember just a few years ago taken a berth just a train ride from Rome for 15€ a night , although someone I recommended it too last year said it's gone up to 25€ a night with water and power .
As I said for you Greece is handy.
for people like us who cruise over 2500 in a season it makes no different if we went East or West North or South
I have no doubts there not going to be a mass exit from Greece if there was one year on and the tax would be hit on the head just like what happen in Italy .
But I believe many who was on the way to Greece and tho who plain to spend a long season there and maybe over winter there won't be and will head for Turkey Sicily even leave the Med earlier then they plain too .
Some of us have to manage a budget, we don't just spend a few months then go back home to earn next year pot to spend , and to spend over a thousand euros extra on a tax to cruising Greece could be the different between buying that new sail or making do .