Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[Davy_S]

A friend of mine owns a Taverna/restaurant in Agia Efimia, he said to me once, Greece would not be in trouble if everyone pays their tax, he owns the Tavera outright, he runs a Mercedes, his wife and daughter have new cars, he claimed his income was 8000 euro a year! the taxmen arrived on the island in early September, they came on a coach from the mainland, they were young students and blended in well, they caught my friend for not giving out receipts, he was fined and the Taverna closed down for four days as punishment, he is now being investigated, they caught one Taverna owner on Zakinthos who was still trading after his business was supposedly wound up in 2011. there is no doubt that they are slowly getting their act together, the Greeks I feel sorry for are the waiters/cleaners some of them only earn 4 euro an hour, but it allows them to claim IKA in the winter months.

 

[BobnLesley]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

...I seem to remember from chatting to one that Kiwis can stay six months at a stretch in Greece under a pre-Schengen treaty, but may have mixed that up with Oz...

That's the Aussies, to give them time to return 'home' for extended visits; until relatively recently when Thessaloniki finally overtook it, Melbourne Australia was second only to Athens as the world's biggest 'Greek speaking' city.

I hear that the implementation's been knocked back until next April now? No surprise, this 'cruising tax' was first mooted as we were leaving Greece in 2012 and has been on/off/on again ever since. I suspect that an easier revenue target for the Greeks post Brexit might be British Flagged yachts? There are lots of them there to charge and if no longer in the EU, they'll surely fall into the same category as the Aus/NZ/USA flagged yachts, which when we were there had to pay substantially more for the paperwork which they were required to maintain rather than the DEPKA that the EU flagged boats had.

 

[truscott]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Actually, it's also the case for us Kiwi's too.

Under the pre-Schengen Bilateral Visa arrangement, which Greece still honours, you may enter Greece on you bilateral visa, and then after that finishes you are still free to cruise the rest of the EU (including Greece) on your Schengen visa. The problem with this is that no one at the immigration offices appear to know this, and so you have to insist, to the point of incurring the immigration officers displeasure, that you are entering on a Bilateral visa first! Although we personally know of folk that have done this, we have never successfully done so in spite of it being documented, having that documentation in hand, etc... The usual response is "come back on Monday". In that particular instance, we didn't bother as we exited Greece 90 days later for Turkey and returned 6 months later with a 12 month Long Stay Visa (as did our Aussie friends that Chris Robb mentioned earlier in the thread (and that opens up a whole different kettle of fish)).

FWIW Italy is the only EU country that refuses to honour the previous Bilateral Visa agreement with NZ as far as I know. It insists that it has been superseded by the Schengen agreement.

As a Kiwi married to a Brit/Aussie, watching this unfold from the sidelines has been quite interesting. We have found Schengen to be a massive PITA. Far worse than the Temporary Import for a non VAT paid vessel. I wish you all the best of luck.



PT.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

Kiwi /Aus/USA maybe interested in that Malta when entering do not stamp your passport , all there are interested in is a crew list so you could stay in Europe extra weeks / months then enter once your in Italy .

 

[BurnitBlue]

Come on ladies , in the end of the day we all in the same boat , no need for name calling .

You are quite right and I apologise, totally, for losing my cool in that way. No excuse.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Kiwi /Aus/USA maybe interested in that Malta when entering do not stamp your passport , all there are interested in is a crew list so you could stay in Europe extra weeks / months then enter once your in Italy .

But still breaking the law although with the connivance of Malta. Unless one gets residence there, a boat-owner must leave sometime and the EU (Schengen) has a long reach.

I voted for Brexit so will not complain about the result (except for the odious Greek cruising tax) . I just have to get myself and my boat out of Greece then out of the Mediterranean ASAP. The Greek cruising tax is a complication and I have not had time to see any way round it. Turkey then the Red Sea is one option that is closed because I would need to transit Greek waters to get clear. Gibraltar and the Caribbean is my destination of choice but the Mediterranean is not an easy option to cross non-stop in March. Basically I have left it too late for safety but I must attempt it. The comparison of bowing over to a humiliating paperwork empire and the freedom of the world away from the Mediterranean is a goal worth the effort.

IMO.

 

[Irish Rover]

Clearly there are some strange fish lurking around the eastern Med.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA

I don't really see how one can claim a boat is 'out of use' in the water - and then continue to live on it?

Nor do I Tony in reality. And I dont want to draw attention to full time Liveaboards by including a request - they might just say the are now tax resident and need to pay all taxes - so I dont want to go there.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Tony although I agree with some of your posting , you really can't expect us to believe the Greek are queuing up to pay there taxes and all the sudden they are the most honest people on this earth , I made two very large purchases in Greece this year running into thousand , both company without me even asking offer me a better price if I paid in cash .
I wouldn't had minded wasn't even that big to make it worth my while .

Vic - I am also concerned about the level of evasion. I am hauled out in a yard (which will remain nameless). I have to pay cash, and I get no invoice. As the Greek Law stands, I could be arrested for not paying VAT and not demanding a receipt. At some point this will explode in our faces, especially as we are now formally discussing how things like Out of Use work and how to simplify it. At some point there will be a proof required and at that point I will have to shop the Haul out yard - yes they deserve to be shopped - I pay my taxes - the middle of the road Greeks pay some pretty hefty taxes - so why should a certain group not pay.? But I would feel very uncomfortable doing it - even though it is perhaps correct. But this of course is where the fear in a totallitarian state comes from where neighbour shops neighbour - Its a slippery slope, caused by those that do not comply. Ramble over

 

[Chris_Robb]

I have no desire or intention of sneaking under the wire. I wrote that point to focus on the almost unbelievable fact that the Greeks made a decision to delay with only a few days between the first announcement and the decision to delay. That decision (after only four days of complaints) to delay implementation to the next working day after Brexit must be an alltime record for Greece. It caused me to be suspicious about the speed and maybe was the desired result anyway.

If UK complain about the timing it can be said that the CA asked for the delay so have only themselves to blame if a no deal takes place and UK boaters are left in the cold with no time to avoid breaking the law. Seems like the CA were led by the nose by the worlds best begging negotiators.

I repeat, I am leaving Greece with my boat, I will not be breaking any law because I don't trust them. Do you honestly believe that Greek society is not corrupt?

It is your choice to stay or to go.
The CA did not request a date of the 2nd April - but perhaps the 1st would be more appropriate!

In respect of the possible Brexit situation on the event of a no deal, we have raised this issue with the Greeks and will be seeking to get a deal specially with Greece - in which they do not need to involve the EU. There is nothing to say that private individuals cannot get a deal going - so lets try! The Government wont be doing it.

 

[Chris_Robb]

But still breaking the law although with the connivance of Malta. Unless one gets residence there, a boat-owner must leave sometime and the EU (Schengen) has a long reach.

I voted for Brexit so will not complain about the result (except for the odious Greek cruising tax) . I just have to get myself and my boat out of Greece then out of the Mediterranean ASAP. The Greek cruising tax is a complication and I have not had time to see any way round it. Turkey then the Red Sea is one option that is closed because I would need to transit Greek waters to get clear. Gibraltar and the Caribbean is my destination of choice but the Mediterranean is not an easy option to cross non-stop in March. Basically I have left it too late for safety but I must attempt it. The comparison of bowing over to a humiliating paperwork empire and the freedom of the world away from the Mediterranean is a goal worth the effort.

IMO.

And just see the paperwork in the Caribbean as you go from Island state to Island state. You will realise that Greece is a dodle.

 

[miyagimoon]

Turkey then the Red Sea is one option that is closed because I would need to transit Greek waters to get clear.

I am open to correction but I thought that this tax would not be applicable to vessels transiting through Greek waters. (Right of Free Passage and all that). So if you left where you are (I do believe the Ionian) before the tax is implemented and sailed straight to Turkey then you would be okay. Or pay for 1 month and take your time.

 

[BurnitBlue]

And just see the paperwork in the Caribbean as you go from Island state to Island state. You will realise that Greece is a dodle.

I agree it is a pain. I have cruised the Caribbean twice before for a total of about 5 years. I always found the need to check out of virtually every island to be the problem because occasionally the office was closed and a wait for a few days was necessary. I recall a time in Haiti when I waited all day for the office to open. When the officer arrived he brushed me aside saying it was too windy to leave and beside he was busy. Come back tomorrow. Then one time in the Bahamas where the officer went on a one man work to rule just because he had been "insulted" by an American Game fisherman, And others, but still it was an adventure and sometimes even a laugh unlike the expected treatment in the office of a couldn't care less European. Have you ever been frustrated by the official Greek shrug of the shoulders?

 

[BurnitBlue]

I am open to correction but I thought that this tax would not be applicable to vessels transiting through Greek waters. (Right of Free Passage and all that). So if you left where you are (I do believe the Ionian) before the tax is implemented and sailed straight to Turkey then you would be okay. Or pay for 1 month and take your time.

I think you are correct. I recall the discussion on this forum. Even to what would happen if an emergency developed and "Force Majoure" was declared in a harbour, Did I spell that right?.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me. Glad to know my Red Sea option has legs.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Vic - I am also concerned about the level of evasion. I am hauled out in a yard (which will remain nameless). I have to pay cash, and I get no invoice. As the Greek Law stands, I could be arrested for not paying VAT and not demanding a receipt. At some point this will explode in our faces, especially as we are now formally discussing how things like Out of Use work and how to simplify it. At some point there will be a proof required and at that point I will have to shop the Haul out yard - yes they deserve to be shopped - I pay my taxes - the middle of the road Greeks pay some pretty hefty taxes - so why should a certain group not pay.? But I would feel very uncomfortable doing it - even though it is perhaps correct. But this of course is where the fear in a totallitarian state comes from where neighbour shops neighbour - Its a slippery slope, caused by those that do not comply. Ramble over

Wow. Just been musing about your problem with the boat yard invoice. You definitely have a problem with "out of service" proof. My suggestion would be for you to send the boatyard an email reminding them that you have not received the invoice yet. The "yet" is very important as it will release you from premeditated involvement. The boatyard will dismiss it as a usual moan from a Brit.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Wow. Just been musing about your problem with the boat yard invoice. You definitely have a problem with "out of service" proof. My suggestion would be for you to send the boatyard an email reminding them that you have not received the invoice yet. The "yet" is very important as it will release you from premeditated involvement. The boatyard will dismiss it as a usual moan from a Brit.

Its particularly difficult for me given my relationship with the Ministries. Can you imagine how they might make an example of me.....

 

[sailaboutvic]

@ Burintblue , we have been known to start our season as early as the first week in March and although at time we had to sit out the odd blow there always been a break in the weather to move on , if you wanted to move your boat to Turkey before the shit hits the fan , I would suggest get it ready and be on board early March and with a little luck you be out of Greece before April .
Re the Red Sea ,Albert ( Miyagimoon ) is the man to chat to , he passed by not long ago also was involved in two Red Sea raillys , he may be of some help .

 

[sailaboutvic]

I am open to correction but I thought that this tax would not be applicable to vessels transiting through Greek waters. (Right of Free Passage and all that). So if you left where you are (I do believe the Ionian) before the tax is implemented and sailed straight to Turkey then you would be okay. Or pay for 1 month and take your time.

You maybe correct , but that would mean going from A to B without stopping , other wise can you imagine how many would just carry on as usually and if stop say they only passing through ,
hold my hands up , me for one . A

 

[Chris_Robb]

You maybe correct , but that would mean going from A to B without stopping , other wise can you imagine how many would just carry on as usually and if stop say they only passing through ,
hold my hands up , me for one . A

I believe there is a right of innocent passage - not the sort of innocent you would understand of course:nonchalance: but that of a vessel engaged in a coastal voyage through one territorial waters to another. I believe there is also the right of stopping in Harbour to take shelter from the weather. I seem to remember it is actually referred to in part of the legislation

 

[vyv_cox]

I believe there is a right of innocent passage - not the sort of innocent you would understand of course:nonchalance: but that of a vessel engaged in a coastal voyage through one territorial waters to another. I believe there is also the right of stopping in Harbour to take shelter from the weather. I seem to remember it is actually referred to in part of the legislation

Depends exactly what a coastal voyage entails. Croatia has strong views on this as I recall. People have been fined for anchoring for lunch and a swim before clearing in at the first port across the border. It seems they were being tracked from the moment they crossed the border. I am almost certain this has been reported a couple of times on this forum.