BurnitBlue
Well-known member
In the ionion sea. A long way to empty a holding tank.
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Greece to extend territorial waters to 12nm
- Thread starter BurnitBlue
- Start date
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
And if you are temporary imported, its 2 hours out and 2 hours back to restart the clock on TI.
I thought that 12 mile limit was pretty universal. I have a feeling that the west of Greece - away from the Turkish zones is 12 miles. The Aegean sea is a minefield. The treaty with the Turks say 8 miles - Greece has always said its 10 miles. Now they are saying 12 miles!
I would love to see a map of the continental shelf they are both claiming. I have some sympathy with The Turks re the Cyprus situation - in that it was the Greek Generals who actually invaded the island, imprisoning the head of state, Archbishop Makarios. The Turks had little option but to respond. Despite nearing a settlement a few years back pride and prejudice intervened.
If my boat was in Turkey now, I might be feeling a little uncomfortable..... and being unable to "escape" to Greece makes it even more frustrating.
I thought that 12 mile limit was pretty universal. I have a feeling that the west of Greece - away from the Turkish zones is 12 miles. The Aegean sea is a minefield. The treaty with the Turks say 8 miles - Greece has always said its 10 miles. Now they are saying 12 miles!
I would love to see a map of the continental shelf they are both claiming. I have some sympathy with The Turks re the Cyprus situation - in that it was the Greek Generals who actually invaded the island, imprisoning the head of state, Archbishop Makarios. The Turks had little option but to respond. Despite nearing a settlement a few years back pride and prejudice intervened.
If my boat was in Turkey now, I might be feeling a little uncomfortable..... and being unable to "escape" to Greece makes it even more frustrating.
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
A bit of a worry for every yacht owner. I believe any damage caused or aggravated by an act of war is not insured. If the EU gets its act together Turkey will back off. I also have some feeling for Turkey. Their whole Mediterranean coast is hemmed in by outlying Greek islands and rocks. Wonder how that came about?
As for the extended territorial waters there is an immedite concern. I was harrased along with a few dozen other skippers last year by the Preveza PP. We had to sign a document stating we had read the law regarding discharge of waste in Greek waters. The document pointed out heavy fines or imprisonment for any offence. The document was a laugh as it wanted the capacity of the yachts present holding tank. In cubic meters no less. Obviously for commercial ships. Those targetted were to hand the signed document into PP. I have a holding tank about .00001cubic meters so ignored it but it is still a matter of great concern to be threatened with prison when there are very few if any pump.out facilities.
The limit right now is 6 nm which is OK. But soon to be 12 nm. Not Ok. Of course yachts in central aegean have always had this problem but mitigated by island passages.
As for the extended territorial waters there is an immedite concern. I was harrased along with a few dozen other skippers last year by the Preveza PP. We had to sign a document stating we had read the law regarding discharge of waste in Greek waters. The document pointed out heavy fines or imprisonment for any offence. The document was a laugh as it wanted the capacity of the yachts present holding tank. In cubic meters no less. Obviously for commercial ships. Those targetted were to hand the signed document into PP. I have a holding tank about .00001cubic meters so ignored it but it is still a matter of great concern to be threatened with prison when there are very few if any pump.out facilities.
The limit right now is 6 nm which is OK. But soon to be 12 nm. Not Ok. Of course yachts in central aegean have always had this problem but mitigated by island passages.
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RupertW
Well-known member
But nobody will ever check once you are at sea.
Resolution
Well-known member
If they would extend Greek waters to a 50 mile limit then I would be very happy. 
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My boat would be in EU27 waters even while moored in a Turkish marina, which would resolve the bloody Brexit VAT problem!
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My boat would be in EU27 waters even while moored in a Turkish marina, which would resolve the bloody Brexit VAT problem!
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
Tony Cross
Well-known member
It was the Treaty Of Lusanne signed with Turkey in 1923. If most Aegean islands were given to Greece then that was the price the Ottoman Empire paid for siding with Germany in WWI. The terms of the treaty have been observed by Turkey for the last 97 years and it's only now that Erdogan is feeling weakened at home that he's trying to shore up his regime by sabre rattling withe their old enemy. Treaty of Lausanne - World War I Document Archive
In addition, Erdogan's claim that 'islands have no continental shelf' is not supported by UNCLOS which states that...
CONTINENTAL SHELF - GENERAL DESCRIPTION
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
Thanks for the explanation. I should have known that.
Although not really logical to punish Turkey by giving the islands to Greece. Yippes that must have hurt. Surely more logical to give them as an addition to the British Empire plus France. Just kidding. Actually, knowing the reason why Turkey is hemmed in I think that with the 2020 trend to re-write history makes conflict quite likely.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
TBH you're half right in your support of Turkey. Greece is her own worst enemy, she cannot get past the loss of the eastern Greek empire, and especially Constantinople, in 1453. The TV weather shows still label Istanbul as Constantinople and it is always called that by newsreaders and others in Greece. The population swaps in the early 1920's, caused by Greece's failed invasion of Anatolia (which means the East in Greek), is what really cemented the distrust between Greeks and Turks. In my limited time in Turkey I got the impression that the average Turk would be prepared to let those times go and just move forward. The average Greek will never do that, even the young ones still believe that Constantinople is theirs and is under occupation.
Erdogan knows the way Greeks feel very well, but instead of trying to find a way to live in harmony with his bruised neighbour he deliberately pulls Greece's tail at every opportunity. The conversion of Haghia Sophia back into a mosque for example, was done only to annoy the Greeks who see it as their spiritual home church (as it originally was). His continued ranting that some Aegean islands are really Turkish and his oft proclaimed assertion that the Treaty of Lusanne was unlawful are yet more tools to tweak the Greek sensibilities.
I firmly believe that this is all sabre rattling on his part in order to stir up nationalist feelings in Turkey and thus shore up his position. AFAIK around 50% of Turks don't like or approve of him or his Islamic 'revolution' in Turkey and of course he knows that. All Turks can get behind his manufactured argument over oil exploration rights against the old enemy of Greece however. If he was serious about the continental shelf argument he would simply occupy Kastelorizo and the smaller Greek islands around it. By making them Turkish he would acquire a huge swathe of continental shelf that would be undeniably Turkish. There would be nothing that Greece could really do about that and the international community, wary of becoming involved in another middle-east war, would shrug their shoulders and point out that they are very small islands just off the coast of Turkey, and pay off or cancel some of the Greek debt in return.
It's froth and bluster and it will IMO stay that way unless Erdogan can spook the Greeks into shooting first, then he can rightfully claim he was attacked and the international community (still wary of another middle-east war) will side with him. He's trying that all the time, Turkish fighter planes deliberately violate Greek airspace several times every day. A few days ago as six Greek fighters were returning to their base at Souda on Crete they were jumped in what the papers called 'a mock dogfight' by two Turkish jets.
Greece is like a child that's had its favourite toy taken away and Turkey is like the older kid who has the toy constantly waving it in Greece's face and teasing them to try and take it back.
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
That is a very fair reading of the situation. I do not favour Turkey because i do not like that kind of intimidation. If Turkey has a case then it should be addressed up front. I spent ten years or more from age 15 in the military and it is an unfortunite fact that sometimes force via war is the only way to settle a dispute. Never the correct solution but it does give a solution. Not even a long lasting solution but it does effectively kick the can down the road for a generation.
From the simple fact that energy and oil rights will become more and more scarce therefore worth fighting for Greece and Turkey must realise that it is not possible to cage a country the size of Turkey by a weaker nation like Greece behind 100 year old war reparations in a world becoming starved of energy.
From the simple fact that energy and oil rights will become more and more scarce therefore worth fighting for Greece and Turkey must realise that it is not possible to cage a country the size of Turkey by a weaker nation like Greece behind 100 year old war reparations in a world becoming starved of energy.
Metabarca
Well-known member
It is indeed a very complex situation and the Greeks, as said, are often their own worst enemy. But it should not be forgotten that Constantinople was Greek for almost 1500 years, and the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and that Greece suffered the loss of not only its east and of its spiritual heart but also Turkish invasion and occupation of Greece per se. Turkey is now acting the bully and deserves no sympathy.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
I think the key to solving the current tensions may well be international recognition of the TRNC.
nortada
Well-known member
The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus has been a fact of life for over 40 years. It is independent of mainland Turkey so why would belated international recognition make any difference other than to really piss off Greece.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
It was the Greek colonels that invaded Cyprus. The Turks stepped in protect their own people.
I have little sympathy for the Greeks on this matter, and also the ridiculous invasion of Turkey at the end of the first world war. They chose the wrong guy to pick a fight with..... Attaturk.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
Absolutely correct and it's time the international community accepted it. There was a reunification referendum in 2004 in which the majority on the Turkey side voted in favour but the Greek side rejected it. Southern Cyprus is laying claim to the seas around TRNC and Turkey will never allow that to happen. International recognition of TRNC would solve that aspect.
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I think you'll find that was engineered by Mr S. Blartfast.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Heroditus has something to say about this ;-)
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Time to make it the first action of the UK in Jan 2021, to recognise northern Cyprus. Memo to Boris
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Resolution
Well-known member
2031? Fat fingers?
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
The very deep hatred of Turkey by Greece will continue hinder negotiations as it has for many years. The story of the atrocities by Ali Pasha against the Greek people are difficult to forget. I think i was Rod Heikel who wrote about it in his Guide to the Ionion. A particularly horrible description of a hollow steel bull with open mouth that roasted a person locked inside. A fire lit underneath caused screame af agony to issue from the mouth of the bull for the ammusement of his guests. Actually i may be confused, i think it was Ali Pasha.
