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Go Big or Go Home?

GravyStain

Active member
Joined
6 Oct 2020
Messages
123
It is lovely and I can pretty much gtee you have never heard of it. Clue. It is Italian. That narrowes it down to one of about 200 manufacturers !
Oooh... A Sunday quiz... I like it :)...
Mind you, I'm sure I'll never guess the answer!
 

MapisM

Well-known member
Joined
11 Mar 2002
Messages
19,173
Ooh... Is it a Cantieri De Pisa ;)?
Naah, why settle for second best? :cool:
.
.
.
...Only joking, of course.
CdP indeed built some masterpieces, but too big for me.
Actually, during my search of a few years ago, I came across a stunning Akhir 22 which was being sold for a song (well, compared to her original value, anyway). But I resisted the temptation, aware as I am that boats=troubles=expenses.
An equation where the size of each component happens to grow in sync - and exponentially! :oops:

So, eventually, I chose the boat debated in this thread, where you'll find also some pics.
Anyway, jrudge is quite likely correct in saying that you probably never heard of her builder (Dalla Pietà, or DP in short).
In fact, I don't think he did either, before actually seeing the thing in flesh! :)
 

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
15,448
Location
SoF
Bouba, did you watch a real football team tonight? YNWA 😀😀
Liverpool are reliable I will give you that, Spurs should be four points clear by now. But Spurs are the quality and the talented side, as long as we can stay injury free we should be at the top till at least the new year. Don’t you wish you had Son? Silly question, of course you do😎😷⚽
 

Hooligan

Active member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
258
Location
Hampshire
Liverpool are reliable I will give you that, Spurs should be four points clear by now. But Spurs are the quality and the talented side, as long as we can stay injury free we should be at the top till at least the new year. Don’t you wish you had Son? Silly question, of course you do😎😷⚽
[/QUOTE
I have to agree that you have the best 11 defenders in the PL 😀😀
 

GravyStain

Active member
Joined
6 Oct 2020
Messages
123
Naah, why settle for second best? :cool:
.
.
.
...Only joking, of course.
CdP indeed built some masterpieces, but too big for me.
Actually, during my search of a few years ago, I came across a stunning Akhir 22 which was being sold for a song (well, compared to her original value, anyway). But I resisted the temptation, aware as I am that boats=troubles=expenses.
An equation where the size of each component happens to grow in sync - and exponentially! :oops:

So, eventually, I chose the boat debated in this thread, where you'll find also some pics.
Anyway, jrudge is quite likely correct in saying that you probably never heard of her builder (Dalla Pietà, or DP in short).
In fact, I don't think he did either, before actually seeing the thing in flesh! :)
I've seen a few up for sale (I think I've looked at every boat over 50ft around 100 times in the last few months :))
The DP's look very nice indeed. Congrats!
 

GravyStain

Active member
Joined
6 Oct 2020
Messages
123
Carrying on with the theme of general advice from you guys, here's one for you :-

Hurricane touched on inverters and his use of small ones for electronic devices etc...

have any of you guys upgraded / added to your batteries and put in a large (5kw ish) inverter to reduce the need for running the genny when anchored. Do they chew through batteries? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Do you find at anchor that you don't run the genny that much anyway (although I imagine it gets used a fair bit for aircon)?
 

markc

Well-known member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,745
Location
Bucks & St Raphael SoF
Carrying on with the theme of general advice from you guys, here's one for you :-

Hurricane touched on inverters and his use of small ones for electronic devices etc...

have any of you guys upgraded / added to your batteries and put in a large (5kw ish) inverter to reduce the need for running the genny when anchored. Do they chew through batteries? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Do you find at anchor that you don't run the genny that much anyway (although I imagine it gets used a fair bit for aircon)?
We don't run our genny much at anchor but when we do it's for the AC or battery charger, at which time we make take the opportunity to run the washing machine / dishwasher etc An inverter wouldn't run the AC or battery charger. I think if you are going to be away for shore power for extended periods I would think solar would be a good shout, however these things are probably best left to a year or so down the line after using the boat so you know what problems you want to solve.
 

Bouba

Well-known member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
15,448
Location
SoF
The only time I run the genny all night is when winter anchoring so that I can run the electric heaters
 

Portofino

Well-known member
Joined
10 Apr 2011
Messages
7,382
Location
Boat- Western Med
Might run it for an hour or so to cook or boil a kettle ( all electric boat ) .
I added extra sound proofing to its case inside + extra to the cockpit sole underneath or ER ceiling - same thing .
Noise was not much of an issue , now it’s a none issue .It’s water discharge is at the stern through a downward direction fan shaped scoop so there’s hardly any “ trickle “ .You can not hear the water from the cockpit table .
Only a gentle hum of the engine because you are basically sat on top of it .
Any wind or music and it’s gone .
Occasionally when it’s really hot I mean kinda temps the Fr gov issues health warnings , old folk pegging it gov hiring refrigeration lorries for temp morgue s etc , then we run it to power the aircon before arriving at port to chill the boat down .
I plug the shore power in and flick the 3 way from geny to shore and the airco never notices.
Then i turn the geny off power it down .That way we have continuity of the cooling .

Having said that ( do not tell Greta Thunburg ps ) we have been known by say 2 pm just to up anchor and go on a big loop of 2 hrs or so at 30 knots with the front screen open to let air through into the cockpit just to cool off , and burn diesel kinda Italian tune up and give the engines a work out .But mainly it’s more comfortable if iam honest .

At anchor I run it for an hour in the morning as well .....and swim etc before setting off .

We have pretty good instrumentation so I can see the states of both batt banks and how much each is getting stuffed in by the smart charger and watch the Ah rate decline with time .

Interestingly the std charger , suspect not so smart was a 40 ah.This packed up shortly after I got the boat 2015 and was replaced with a smart 80 ah for 2x 2x 180 ah banks .A boat sparky did the calcs and workings not me .
When I say “ packed up “ they decay slow down .It was only giving out at the end about 4 ah .So net discharge or not long enough to top up .

So there will be many out there with poorly chargers which eventually shorten the batt life because they never fully top them off and they discharge deeper more thus knacker quickly.
So throwing more batts at the problem or adding more works for a short while .

You have all this to come .

Another detail often overlooked is your fridges should be dual , meaning they run on 24 v and switch to 220 if the geny or shore power is on .Crucially on the 24 v ( batts ) they should have a volt regulator that cuts off below a preset limit .
So at a long anchor with no geny say sleeping they do not flatten / kill the batts .
We have not got a full size freezer just two fridges and they usually turn off by morning @ anchor .
As I said they get a hour or so of 220 with the geny anyhow .

A long run and the engines alternators are enough with my boat as we have deliberately swayed away from voltage hungry appliances. Again I can see the stuffing rate on the Solon console only 40 mins normally tops off both banks running after a prolonged anchor .
 

Hurricane

Well-known member
Joined
11 Nov 2005
Messages
7,726
Location
Sant Carles de la Ràpita
Carrying on with the theme of general advice from you guys, here's one for you :-

Hurricane touched on inverters and his use of small ones for electronic devices etc...

have any of you guys upgraded / added to your batteries and put in a large (5kw ish) inverter to reduce the need for running the genny when anchored. Do they chew through batteries? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Do you find at anchor that you don't run the genny that much anyway (although I imagine it gets used a fair bit for aircon)?
That is an excellent question.
Most owners (and I mean a very high percentage) of boats of the size and style that you are looking at don't actually take their boats away from shore power for very long.
On our boat, we are different.
Basing our boat on mainland Spain means that when we are away (say) in the the islands, we don't go into marinas unless the weather forces us to do so.
And, more importantly, the bays are quieter and nicer than the marinas anyway.

This means that the boat has to run on batteries or on the generator.
In my view, boat builders of our style of boat expect people to run their generators all the time - hence quiet running high power generators.
Owners of sailing yachts are a completely different demographic and tend to run their systems off batteries.
In deed, many sailing yachts don't even have generators at all - relying on their engines, solar panels and windmills to charge their batteries.

So the motor boat concept is to either stay in a marina "plugged in" or to run the generator most of the time.
This creates a huge problem for the batteries.
Most "house batteries" (the batteries that run the boat's services, fridges etc) are still lead acid based.
This means that their effective use is half of their rated capacity.
Start at 100% capacity - discharge to 50% and you will find that the batteries are ?uggered.
Meaning that on a typical motor boat, you can run the boat overnight on it batteries for a few days if you recharge them using the generator.
Now - here's my point.
Lead acid batteries recharge exponentially - taking most of their charge in the first hour or so.
But to complete the charge after a night on batteries, you will need to run the generator for more than a couple of hours (probably closer to 6 to 8 hours).
If you don't, the full 100% won't be reached.
My charging regime has always been to run the generator for a couple of hours in the evening and a couple of hours over breakfast.
Typically, this regime will only get the batteries to about 90% to 95% on the first day.
But as the days pass, the battery level after a each recharge falls and at some point the level at the end of the discharge phase will drop below 50% - i.e. ?uggered batteries.
Believe me - I've been there - lots of times.

Solutions
Don't go out anchoring at all - lots don't.
Run the generator all the time.
Run the generator for longer periods and finish charging the batteries each time.
Go out for a few days (less than 3 nights) and go back to a marina and "plug in"
or
Alternatives
Lithium batteries can be set up to charge very quickly so you that they can recover from an overnight discharge without the long slow charge cycle of lead acid.
But Lithium batteries and associated chargers are expensive.
The only thing worse than ?uggering a set of batteries is ?uggering a set of EXPENSIVE batteries!!
AGM and Gel batteries are slightly more robust than the standard lead acid batteries that you will find in your car.

So, my solution.
I like my boat to be able to stay away from the marina's shore supply indefinitely and I don't like running the generator all the time.
Apart from being more peaceful, when friends turn up in their dinghies, if the generator is running they have to be told to leave their tender on the starboard side because the generator will cover their dinghy with dirty soot.
I have installed AGM batteries in my service bank because they are a little more robust than the normal lead acid.
But crucially, I also have also installed some solar panels on the eyebrow ( thats the bit that I call the coach roof over the lower helm).
Unfortunately, the boat's daily load is too much that can be covered by enough solar panels.
However, the solar panels that I have installed is enough to cover the boat's background load plus a small amount.
That small amount is enough to "finish off" the charging cycle after the generator has done a quick morning charge over breakfast.
Remember - the batteries take will take a larger charge current when they are most empty.
Meaning that the solar panels only have to finish off the charging when the required current is at its lowest.

The result is that we can stay away from shore power indefinitely.

Here is a pic that shows the solar panels

DJI_0033e.resized.jpg
 
Last edited:

GravyStain

Active member
Joined
6 Oct 2020
Messages
123
That is an excellent question.
Most owners (and I mean a very high percentage) of boats of the size and style that you are looking at don't actually take their boats away from shore power for very long.
On our boat, we are different.
Basing our boat on mainland Spain means that when we are away (say) in the the islands, we don't go into marinas unless the weather forces us to do so.
And, more importantly, the bays are quieter and nicer than the marinas anyway.

This means that the boat has to run on batteries or on the generator.
In my view, boat builders of our style of boat expect people to run their generators all the time - hence quiet running high power generators.
Owners of sailing yachts are a completely different demographic and tend to run their systems off batteries.
In deed, many sailing yachts don't even have generators at all - relying on their engines, solar panels and windmills to charge their batteries.

So the motor boat concept is to either stay in a marina "plugged in" or to run the generator most of the time.
This creates a huge problem for the batteries.
Most "house batteries" (the batteries that run the boat's services, fridges etc) are still lead acid based.
This means that their effective use is half of their rated capacity.
Start at 100% capacity - discharge to 50% and you will find that the batteries are ?uggered.
Meaning that on a typical motor boat, you can run the boat overnight on it batteries for a few days if you recharge them using the generator.
Now - here's my point.
Lead acid batteries recharge exponentially - taking most of their charge in the first hour or so.
But to complete the charge after a night on batteries, you will need to run the generator for more than a couple of hours (probably closer to 6 to 8 hours).
If you don't, the full 100% won't be reached.
My charging regime has always been to run the generator for a couple of hours in the evening and a couple of hours over breakfast.
Typically, this regime will only get the batteries to about 90% to 95% on the first day.
But as the days pass, the battery level after a each recharge falls and at some point the level at the end of the discharge phase will drop below 50% - i.e. ?uggered batteries.
Believe me - I've been there - lots of times.

Solutions
Don't go out anchoring at all - lots don't.
Run the generator all the time.
Run the generator for longer periods and finish charging the batteries each time.
Go out for a few days (less than 3 nights) and go back to a marina and "plug in"
or
Alternatives
Lithium batteries can be set up to charge very quickly so you that they can recover from an overnight discharge without the long slow charge cycle of lead acid.
But Lithium batteries and associated chargers are expensive.
The only thing worse than ?uggering a set of batteries is ?uggering a set of EXPENSIVE batteries!!
AGM and Gel batteries are slightly more robust than the standard lead acid batteries that you will find in your car.

So, my solution.
I like my boat to be able to stay away from the marina's shore supply indefinitely and I don't like running the generator all the time.
Apart from being more peaceful, when friends turn up in their dinghies, if the generator is running they have to be told to leave their tender on the starboard side because the generator will cover their dinghy with dirty soot.
I have installed AGM batteries in my service bank because they are a little more robust than the normal lead acid.
But crucially, I also have also installed some solar panels on the eyebrow ( thats the bit that I call the coach roof over the lower helm).
Unfortunately, the boat's daily load is too much that can be covered by enough solar panels.
However, the solar panels that I have installed is enough to cover the boat's background load plus a small amount.
That small amount is enough to "finish off" the charging cycle after the generator has done a quick morning charge over breakfast.
Remember - the batteries take will take a larger charge current when they are most empty.
Meaning that the solar panels only have to finish off the charging when the required current is at its lowest.

The result is that we can stay away from shore power indefinitely.

Here is a pic that shows the solar panels

View attachment 103583
A very neat solution Hurricane. Do you not run the genny at night for aircon, or just rely on the breeze to cool you down (ish)?
 

Portofino

Well-known member
Joined
10 Apr 2011
Messages
7,382
Location
Boat- Western Med
@ Hurricane how do you know or did you know your charger was fully working .I mean chucking out what it says on the tin ?
Or is up to the job even if not decaying?
 

jrudge

Well-known member
Joined
4 Dec 2005
Messages
4,597
Location
Live London, boat Mallorca
There is no issue with inverters other than hammering the batteres to hell. I am fitting a Victron unit now. That allows current draw / voltage to trigger generator start. I have set it to call for generator for anything over 1500w. So I can have lost of small still of (just) boil a kettle but any more it will revert to the gen.
 

GravyStain

Active member
Joined
6 Oct 2020
Messages
123
There is no issue with inverters other than hammering the batteres to hell. I am fitting a Victron unit now. That allows current draw / voltage to trigger generator start. I have set it to call for generator for anything over 1500w. So I can have lost of small still of (just) boil a kettle but any more it will revert to the gen.
Are you having the 1.5Kw version fitted then?
 

Hurricane

Well-known member
Joined
11 Nov 2005
Messages
7,726
Location
Sant Carles de la Ràpita
A very neat solution Hurricane. Do you not run the genny at night for aircon, or just rely on the breeze to cool you down (ish)?
No the generator goes off at night.
In the hot summer months on anchor, opening the side windows helps to keep cool.
And sometimes, I will run the generator until about half an hour after everyone has gone to bed to cool the cabins.
That tops the batteries up as well.

I have also fitted fans over each of the cabin beds which take very little power and can run all night.
They are such low power that I wired them into the lighting circuit.

IMG_1691.resized.JPG

IMG_1693.resized.JPG
 
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