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Laser310

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Drifting back into this discussion, I think ‘it means you have the same rights as an EU citizen, whilst in Sweden’.

having only skimmed the thread..., i think this makes the most sense.

it doesn't seem likely that Sweden has the right to _unilaterally_ grant a non swedish citizen, and non EU citizen, the rights of an EU citizen in countries other than sweden. Sure, they can more or less give that peson whatever rights they want to in sweden.., but other EU countries have only agreed to give certain rights to other EU citizens.., not to anyone that sweden (or any other EU country) might think should have those rights.
 

nortada

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Much of the confusion here is because Schengen and Freedom of Movement are not the same.

if you have residency in a Schengen country, you can travel to any other Schengen country unlimited for tourisme or business. BUT schengen does not cover living and working. Living and working is covered by FoM. So a UK resident from Sweden can visit Spain, but he cannot work there: he then needs to apply for a Spanish work permit. He can also not get social security there. He can’t reside there. Different countries have different definition of what makes you “a resident”.

If you have residency in an EU state but are not a citizen of the EU (the position many Brits now find themselves in), whilst you have unlimited time and privileges in your host country, Schengen still limits you to 90 days in 180 in all other parts of the Schengen Zone.
 
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nortada

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Drifting back into this discussion, I think ‘it means you have the same rights as an EU citizen, whilst in Sweden’.

having only skimmed the thread..., i think this makes the most sense.

it doesn't seem likely that Sweden has the right to _unilaterally_ grant a non swedish citizen, and non EU citizen, the rights of an EU citizen in countries other than sweden. Sure, they can more or less give that peson whatever rights they want to in sweden.., but other EU countries have only agreed to give certain rights to other EU citizens.., not to anyone that sweden (or any other EU country) might think should have those rights.

Correct. The original quote applied before 1/1/21 and was, as you surmised - applicable to just Sweden.

I understand the wording has subsequently been amended.
 

BurnitBlue

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having only skimmed the thread..., i think this makes the most sense.

it doesn't seem likely that Sweden has the right to _unilaterally_ grant a non swedish citizen, and non EU citizen, the rights of an EU citizen in countries other than sweden. Sure, they can more or less give that peson whatever rights they want to in sweden.., but other EU countries have only agreed to give certain rights to other EU citizens.., not to anyone that sweden (or any other EU country) might think should have those rights.
I have already admitted my mistake and reluctantly accept that permanent residency in Sweden allows me the same rights as an EU Citizen only in Sweden. HOWEVER, yesterday I submitted my application to re-new my permanent residence on line using e-services. I recieved an email to say that my application has been received and that a certificate will be posted to my registered address within one week to state that application has been made and that I will have the same rights as an EU citizen until a decision has been made and I get my official card.

The email said that the certificate is needed to get past the Schengen border Police. I wrote the word reluctant above because I spent my working life designing parts of the logic architecture of computers so logic is baked into my thoughts. I asked advice from the Skatteverket office down town about this permanent residence and Citizenship thing. The woman confirmed that the requirements for both were virtually identical except for a level of Swedish language sufficient to fill in the form in Swedish and answer the questions that is not necessary for residence as the forms are in English.

So it does seem likely that Sweden has the right to unilaterally grant a non-Swedish citizen the rights of an EU citizen outside Sweden because they would do that with a brand new Swedish citizen document which needs the identical requirements. Logically a Greek border police would not care a hoot if I spoke Swedish or not. As far as Greece is concerned I would satisfy the same citizenship requirements necessary for a residence card. But we do not live in a logical world, at least not until AI kicks in.

However as I said I accept the majority view for a quiet life. Incidentally, Skatterverket recommended that after I get my permanent residence card I could ask again but she had no idea who would know the answer.

I still think this is a playground for lawyers. Why would Sweden give me the same rights as an EU citizen? Why not the rights of a British Citizen with a Swedish residence card?
 

BurnitBlue

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Correct. The original quote applied before 1/1/21 and was, as you surmised - applicable to just Sweden.

I understand the wording has subsequently been amended.
Hi nortada. I was ready for bed when I noticed this subject had been fired up again. You are correct the wording was amended after jan 1st. The words granting Swedish citizen rights was amended to EU citizen rights only. This does not make sense. Without a residence permit I would be a British Citizen Visitor or tourist sublect to a 90 day limit. Why not regard me as a British citizen with right of residence for 365/365 in Sweden only. The only reason I can grasp logically is that defining me as an EU citizen somehow means they don't have to spell out chapter and verse regarding the WA agreement which may be different to a Canadian citizen with the right of residence.

This could mean that this definition opens the door for Greece, for instance, to accept British WA citizen with Swedish resident EU citizen status as an acceptable reason for me to stay 365/365 spending all my money sailing around Greece in my boat. After all rules are largely at the discretion of the host country as long as the EU rules are not flaunted.
 

nortada

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Hi nortada. I was ready for bed when I noticed this subject had been fired up again. You are correct the wording was amended after jan 1st. The words granting Swedish citizen rights was amended to EU citizen rights only. This does not make sense. Without a residence permit I would be a British Citizen Visitor or tourist sublect to a 90 day limit. Why not regard me as a British citizen with right of residence for 365/365 in Sweden only. The only reason I can grasp logically is that defining me as an EU citizen somehow means they don't have to spell out chapter and verse regarding the WA agreement which may be different to a Canadian citizen with the right of residence.

This could mean that this definition opens the door for Greece, for instance, to accept British WA citizen with Swedish resident EU citizen status as an acceptable reason for me to stay 365/365 spending all my money sailing around Greece in my boat. After all rules are largely at the discretion of the host country as long as the EU rules are not flaunted.

Thanks for all of the detail in your last 2 messages.

I think the root cause of much confusion is the, at times, indiscriminate use of the terms residency and citizenship. They are very different.

Up to 1/1/21 it was relatively easy to get residency and unless residents wished/needed to spend extended periods of time in a number of different EU countries, residency should meet their needs.

Citizenship is far harder to get and following on from my last sentence, not needed by the majority of Brits in the EU.

Of course both residency and citizenship is given by countries in the EU, not the EU (Brussels) but Schengen is a EU construct and applies equally across the whole of the EU Schengen Zone.
 

BurnitBlue

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Thanks for all of the detail in your last 2 messages.

I think the root cause of much confusion is the, at times, indiscriminate use of the terms residency and citizenship. They are very different.

Up to 1/1/21 it was relatively easy to get residency and unless residents wished/needed to spend extended periods of time in a number of different EU countries, residency should meet their needs.

Citizenship is far harder to get and following on from my last sentence, not needed by the majority of Brits in the EU.

Of course both residency and citizenship is given by countries in the EU, not the EU (Brussels) but Schengen is a EU construct and applies equally across the whole of the EU Schengen Zone.
I was just being mischievous. It is still a puzzle though why my status is that of an EU citizen applying for residency rather than a British Citizen applying for residency. It must be something in the WA agreement or my former status. I really accept 90 days limit in the rest of EU until it, or if it, gets changed. Besides my plans are to take my boat and my money to greener pastures or should I say, cleaner blue seas and a warmer welcome.
 

syvictoria

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I asked advice from the Skatteverket office down town about this permanent residence and Citizenship thing. The woman confirmed that the requirements for both were virtually identical except for a level of Swedish language sufficient to fill in the form in Swedish and answer the questions that is not necessary for residence as the forms are in English.

So it does seem likely that Sweden has the right to unilaterally grant a non-Swedish citizen the rights of an EU citizen outside Sweden because they would do that with a brand new Swedish citizen document which needs the identical requirements.

(My bold)

But once a right to citizenship has been granted (i.e.: by successfully demonstrating the required language skills, etc.), the individual concerned then ceases to be a non-Swedish citizen and becomes a Swedish citizen and by extension also an EU citizen.
 

syvictoria

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I was just being mischievous. It is still a puzzle though why my status is that of an EU citizen applying for residency rather than a British Citizen applying for residency. It must be something in the WA agreement or my former status. I really accept 90 days limit in the rest of EU until it, or if it, gets changed. Besides my plans are to take my boat and my money to greener pastures or should I say, cleaner blue seas and a warmer welcome.

I suspect it's just a choice of terminology to simplify the rules. Otherwise the rules would have to explicitly mention every nation individually, i.e.: not only British citizen, but American citizen, Australian citizen, etc., all of whom could be applying for residency. It surely just means that all residency applicants have equivalent rights during the application process, no?
 

syvictoria

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Much of the confusion here is because Schengen and Freedom of Movement are not the same.

if you have residency in a Schengen country, you can travel to any other Schengen country unlimited for tourisme or business. BUT schengen does not cover living and working. Living and working is covered by FoM. So a UK resident from Sweden can visit Spain, but he cannot work there: he then needs to apply for a Spanish work permit. He can also not get social security there. He can’t reside there. Different countries have different definition of what makes you “a resident”.

Sorry, but I have to disagree very slightly. Schengen is an area with no internal borders and a single visa system. FoM is a fundamental EU concept which is intrinsically linked to an EU citizen's right to work, study and live freely throughout the EU.

Residency alone in Schengen does not afford an individual the right to unlimited travel within Schengen, regardless of the purpose. Only EU citizenship does this.
 

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I suspect it's just a choice of terminology to simplify the rules. Otherwise the rules would have to explicitly mention every nation individually, i.e.: not only British citizen, but American citizen, Australian citizen, etc., all of whom could be applying for residency. It surely just means that all residency applicants have equivalent rights during the application process, no?
No. A legal requirement surely cannot play around with convenient descriptions. The lawyers would be doing hand stands in delight at future challenges. Australiens cannot be called out as an EU citizen for convenience just because they are applying for residence usually from Australia before they even set foot in the benighted place. My take is that the extension of applications to mid September 2021 also extends my status as an EU citizen to mid-September. Australians etc have nothing to do with that extension. It is a legacy of the Brexit thing.

I have answered my own question and I ask another. Can I assume that my extension to mid September as an EU citizen so that I can re-apply for residence (at their convenience to avoid a log jam) also allows me an extension of the 90 day to unlimited in Schengen until mid September? It is my understanding that a person cannot apply for residence from inside Schengen. I know for a fact that a student applying for university must have been granted residence before they get here. Therefore it is unusual for an Alien to legally apply for residency from inside the EU or Schengen? In other words, the EU citizen thing will end when the decision for residency application is decided. I will then revert back to being a British Citizen with residency. It is all about applying for residence inside Schengen.

All this is interesting but I must get on with my selection of suitable roadsteads to sneak into on my way out of here in my boat.
 
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syvictoria

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No. A legal requirement surely cannot play around with convenient descriptions. The lawyers would be doing hand stands in delight at future challenges. Australiens cannot be called out as an EU citizen for convenience just because they are applying for residence usually from Australia before they even set foot in the benighted place. My take is that the extension of app,ications to mid September 2021 also extends my status as an EU citizen to mid-September. Australians etc have nothing to do with that extension. It is a legacy of the Brexit thing.

I have answered my own question and I ask another. Can I assume that my extension to mid September as an EU citizen so that I can re-apply for residence (at their convenience to avoid a log jam) also allows me an extension of the 90 day to unlimited until mid September? It is my understanding that a person cannot apply for residence from inside Schengen. I know for a fact that a student applying for university must have been granted residence before they get here.

All this is interesting but I must get on with my selection of suitable roadsteads to sneak into on my way out of here in my boat.

Was it not the general consensus earlier in this thread that a Swedish resident (not citizen) regretfully has only the same rights as an EU citizen, whilst in Sweden?

Edited to add: You mention above "The email said that the certificate is needed to get past the Schengen border Police." This is surely to facilitate entry/exit to Sweden without Schengen 90/180 becoming an issue, not extending a right to FoM across the EU?
 

syvictoria

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I asked advice from the Skatteverket office down town about this permanent residence and Citizenship thing. The woman confirmed that the requirements for both were virtually identical except for a level of Swedish language sufficient to fill in the form in Swedish and answer the questions that is not necessary for residence as the forms are in English.

Just because the requirements are very similar, that doesn't necessarily mean that the outcome is. In one instance you are applying for a new or continued right to reside in Sweden, and in the other you are applying for full citizenship along with it's additional rights (such as FoM) AND obligations (such as potentially having to relinquish your existing citizenship if you're currently a national of a country that doesn't allow dual citizenship, for example).
 

BurnitBlue

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@ Syvictoria
I write too many words because I am bored with four walls. Briefly I accepted a while ago that I will only be permitted 90 days in the rest of Schengen. My puzzlement continued about the terminology regarding my status as EU Citizen. The light bulb came on while writing a recent reply. The EU Citizen thing is a way to legitimize an application for residency while inside Schengen. It ends when a decision is made when I will revert back to being a British Citizen with rights of Residency in Sweden.

That is also the reason an extension to mid September for appications was made.
 

sailaboutvic

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I think what any of us think isn't going to make a different if the time comes when you approached by a custom officer while in a said country and he disagrees with you view .
anyway 13 Jan and no one so far as ask us flying our red ensign to show passport , VAT or what we had for dinner .
 

BurnitBlue

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I think what any of us think isn't going to make a different if the time comes when you approached by a custom officer while in a said country and he disagrees with you view .
anyway 13 Jan and no one so far as ask us flying our red ensign to show passport , VAT or what we had for dinner .
Sorry vic, but on 13th Jan it is impossible for a Skipper of a Brit flagged boat to have exceeded 90 days, since the count only started on 1st Jan. No one will bother you until 1st April.
 
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