FINALLY!!!

[flaming]

Interesting titbit from the latest IRC congress minutes...

There was also a rule change submission from Australia for IRC to allow two concurrent certificates for different configurations, in their case the demand is for offshore v. inshore racing. The principle of two certificates was agreed by Congress and a pilot will be developed to be tested in Australia and other southern hemisphere countries during 2022, with a view to worldwide rollout if it proves successful.

IRC rating on course for 2022 - IRC Rating

At last sense is seen. With all of the latest moves in IRC rating being to do with flying headsails, setting jibs of whisker poles to leeward etc etc, all being about offshore racing... At long last it seems to have finally dawned on the powers that be that forcing boats to rate for all these offshore features when racing inshore (or go through multiple rating changes per season) was going to put boats off racing inshore.

Quite why it is only a trial in Aus I don't know, hope it gets rolled out asap.

 

[Wing Mark]

How will this work?
Should a boat be able to enter say a long series and chop and change certs each weekend?

You can get this in dinghies, where someone might enter a series as a Laser Std, but then enter one race as a Laser Radial because it's windy. The race has its own trophy, but is also part of the series....

Do you want people to chop and change rigs according to the weather?
(FTAOD 'yes' is IMHO a valid answer to this question, but it won't please everyone)


The thing is, with a 'mature' handicap system like IRC/CHS, you don't have to change very much before you obsolete all the current optimised boats.
I thought 'only one cert' was kind of a 'founding principle' of CHS?

Maybe IRC has had its day? Do all handicap schemes have a life cycle?
Was the thread title a reference to that?

In dinghies, there are more than a few people who think 'the powers that be' bugger about with handicaps to drive people into OD or FPTP racing!

 

[flaming]

I think you're slightly missing the idea here.

It starts with the issue - which is simply that the development of sails and techniques for offshore sailing has resulted in IRC applying new rules - for example the recent decision to rate "flying headsails". And also the change to how whisker poles were rated, in relation to using them to push out the clew of a jib to leeward when reaching. Boats who were going offshore wanted to do these things, so they took the rating hit, as they expect to spend hours at a time reaching, where these sails, and these techniques, are beneficial. In addition the development of code sails has meant that a lot of offshore boats declared more than the standard 3 spinnakers, as the potential benefit over a long offshore course of having 4 or 5 kites on board is seen to outweigh the small rating hit.
However, when racing inshore all of these things are just rating hits for things that you aren't going to use during the race. This has 2 effects, it means that boats who are predominantly offshore focused are carrying a lot of extra rating that they won't use to race inshore, and this is putting them off coming out for the occasional inshore event, hurting fleet numbers. I've been saying this for years....

So the solution is obvious, allow boats to have two setups. One for offshore, declaring all the sails and poles etc that you're going to take, and one for inshore with just the sails etc that you will use inshore.

Then simply allow the event organisers to declare "this event uses your offshore certificate" or "this event uses your inshore certificate".

This allows the offshore boats to have a cert for racing inshore that actually reflects the sails that they will use, so no flying headsails, just 3 kites, no whisker pole to leeward etc etc. This may just tempt a few more of them into coming out for the inshore racing.

So no, not chopping and changing certs each weekend on the forecast, but recognising that offshore and inshore racing have diverged to the point where the sail setups used by the same boat can no longer be equitably covered by 1 IRC rating.

 

[Wing Mark]

Yes, I see the 'intended' outcome.

But how long before the unintended consequences kick in?
Are there series with both inshore and offshore events?

If inshore and offshore have diverged that much, why do they even use the same rating scheme?
Didn't boats used to have multiple ratings under different schemes back last century?
IMS and CHS, some regattas under each?

 

[flaming]

Yes, I see the 'intended' outcome.

But how long before the unintended consequences kick in?
Are there series with both inshore and offshore events?

I honestly can't really see any unintended consequences. It's just "rate what you'll actually use for this type of event". There are the occasional event with both inshore and offshore components, but that can be dealt with in the NOR by just telling the competitors which of the 2 numbers on their cert- the inshore or the offshore - they will be using for each race, or if one rating will apply for the whole series.

What unintended consequences can you forsee?

If inshore and offshore have diverged that much, why do they even use the same rating scheme?

Because it's the only rating in town, and it does have the advantage of only needing one set of measurements etc.

Didn't boats used to have multiple ratings under different schemes back last century?
IMS and CHS, some regattas under each?

Yes, some did. But that was an even worse scenario, as different ratings treated different features either favourably or unfavourably. So for example it could be advantageous under IMS to have a lot of roach on your main, but IRC didn't like it. So if you have 2 ratings you either have one where you aren't optomised, or you have to have completely different suits of sails. Or maybe having a giant oversized pole was good under 1 system, but not the other, etc etc. And then some events were scored under both systems. So how do you setup a boat to be scored under both when they both treat features differently?

At least in this regard, all the key decisions such as sail area, mainsail shape, pole length, black band locations etc etc can be optimised with what is considered to work with IRC. All that is really going to change between certs for the vast majority of boats is going to be the "extras" like the flying jibs, number of kites etc. Just basically the stuff that you only want to use and be rated for offshore. Stuff that the offshore boys who do race inshore aren't even taking on board for the inshore races, but are still rated for it...

It might be that some boats do decide to change the sail area between inshore and offshore. I can see this working especially on older boats designed for a Genoa. You may very well still want to carry a Genoa offshore for long beats or fetches in the light, but it's been long proven that it's better under IRC to ditch the overlapping sails for round the cans racing. Or maybe a boat has an especially massive kite for offshore that they wouldn't want to fly inshore because it's too difficult to gybe on a short course.
As of now, those boats are disincentivised from coming racing inshore because they have to carry a rating for a sail that they have no intention of flying when racing inshore.

 

[Minerva]

With this new rule, I may want my boat to be more prepared for heavy winds offshore - no kites or at least a tiny on, a blade jib and main? Then inshore I want a Code 0, bigger jib and a big kite?

Whats stopping me from using my offshore rating on big wind races and my inshore one on lighter days?

 

[flaming]

Whats stopping me from using my offshore rating on big wind races and my inshore one on lighter days?

Because the NOR, published well in advance of the event, would state whether the inshore or offshore rating was to be used. You won't get a choice which rating is applied, you just get to configure your boat/sails how you want to sail inshore, and how you want to sail offshore, and are rated accordingly.

 

[Birdseye]

I honestly can't really see any unintended consequences. It's just "rate what you'll actually use for this type of event".

Maybe but you can be sure that already people are wondering how this change can be gamed to give advantage - if it happens of course.

 

[flaming]

Maybe but you can be sure that already people are wondering how this change can be gamed to give advantage - if it happens of course.

I cannot see how though. It's just a case of choosing what setup you want to have your boat in for inshore, and what for offshore, then the race organisers deciding which rating would be used for their event.

The only contentious issue might be which rating races such as the RTI choose to use. But that'll be in the NOR published months before the event.

 

[Laser310]

I cannot see how though. It's just a case of choosing what setup you want to have your boat in for inshore, and what for offshore, then the race organisers deciding which rating would be used for their event.

The only contentious issue might be which rating races such as the RTI choose to use. But that'll be in the NOR published months before the event.

is it certain that the rating to be used will be specified by the organizers?

could it be left up to the sailors to decide which rating to register with? presumably this would have to be before the regatta starts - i would think a few weeks before...

what if an owner only gets one rating? Or, will both be provided for a single fee? I guess in many cases they will be the same, as the equipment will be unchanged.

if both aren't provided, i doubt you want someone excluded from an offshore event because they only have an inshore rating.

BTW - IRC is completely dead in the USA. Just a few years ago it was the overwhelming favourite for competitive sailing in much of the USA - certainly the whole East Coast. Now, it is all ORC.., with the exception that Newport Bermuda remains ORR.

 

[flaming]

is it certain that the rating to be used will be specified by the organizers?

I don't think anything is 100% decided, but I can't see how else it would work, you'd have big problems with last minute entries otherwise.

what if an owner only gets one rating? Or, will both be provided for a single fee? I guess in many cases they will be the same, as the equipment will be unchanged.

if both aren't provided, i doubt you want someone excluded from an offshore event because they only have an inshore rating.

If you don't declare any differences in setup the 2 ratings would be the same. So it would only matter to people who have decided to change their setup for inshore vs offshore. So you could still have 2 numbers on every cert, but for a lot of boats they would be the same.

BTW - IRC is completely dead in the USA. Just a few years ago it was the overwhelming favourite for competitive sailing in much of the USA - certainly the whole East Coast. Now, it is all ORC.., with the exception that Newport Bermuda remains ORR.

Yes, IRC is declining globally, but I don't see it being surpassed in the UK any time soon, especially when the biggest organiser of races is also the organiser of the rating....

 

[Tomahawk]

We push the issue under this to extreem. At 40 by 20 feet, Tomahawk is dead in the water on short leg courses that involve lots tacking and manoeuvres as we just about stop dead every manoeuvre. But given course with legs over ten miles long she can come into her own.

A single handical for both sorts of course is always going to be very unfair in the wrong situation. We really need two handicaps. One for short leg courses and one for offshore courses. Handicap to apply to the whole series.

 

[Wing Mark]

It's like PR isn't it?
You all agree that first past the post isn't right, but keep moaning that everything else is unfair.

The more people fiddle with handicap systems, the less people have faith in them.

 

[flaming]

They did eventually bring this in, though they have, to my mind at least, slightly fudged it.

What we have now is that any boat can apply for a secondary certificate. This can be any changes you like, so hopefully some offshore boats might use it to optimise their sail choice for inshore and come sail a few events.
For us we've long debated the 3 vs 4 kites at Cowes, so we now have a secondary cert with 4 kites to use for Cowes, and any other events where we might want it.

The reason I think they've fudged it is that instead of calling them "inshore and offshore" certs and allowing the event to dictate they allow you to pick either for any given regatta. Which might make rating deadlines a little more important if people start having a high wind and low wind cert and declaring one or the other right before the event.

The NOR for the spring championships, for example, just says that you must notify no later than the Thursday before your first race. Which would be well inside a weather forecast window....

 

[Laser310]

instead of calling them "inshore and offshore" certs and allowing the event to dictate they allow you to pick either for any given regatta.

probably not a great idea...

seems like it doesn't solve the problem it set out to solve.

boats that want to optimize for offshore.., will use one of their certs for offshore.., and will still be at a disadvantage against boats that optimize for inshore - because those boats will have two inshore certs to choose from.

and; leaving the choice to a few days before the event just makes it worse.

i guess you could look at it the other way, and say that boats that choose two inshore certs will be disadvantaged offshore - but i bet these will be boats that weren't doing offshore anyway.

i guess also, some boats will come up with two offshore certs..., that's probably what I would do.., but the utility will depend on how long before the race you have to decide which cert to use.