EU Travel post Brexit

[Graham376]

I sent an enquiry to the UK embassy in Lisbon about conflicting information. First is my enquiry, after that is the embassy reply just received. Make your own minds up about what it will/will not allow us to do.

I am receiving conflicting information regarding free travel within Schengen for those of us with residence in an EU State.

This excerpt from a January 2019 editorial has just been published on a sailing forum-

The British Ambassador to Portugal has been attending a series of 'surgeries' around the country talking to British overseas residents about the possible outcomes of the UK leaving the EU. She stressed that all British citizens should make sure that their authorizations for residency, passports and other documentation is up to date and in order. Residents will retain their current EU rights in their host country, but under the latest 'Withdrawal Agreement', they will lose the right of free movement, including travel within the Schengen area for longer than 90 days in every 180.

Earlier this year, I contacted Europe Direct and received the following reply in March-

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre and apologies for the late reply.We have consulted the Directorate-General for Justice and Consumers (DG JUST). They can inform you that when transiting via another country than the Member State of residence, passports should not be stamped on entry/exit. Residence permit holders are not limited to the maximum period of stay of 90/180 days within the Schengen area as they have a right of residence going beyond these days in the Member State which issued the residence permit.

Which statement is correct? Obviously, they can't both be.

Regards,

Thank you for your enquiry.

Free movement within Schengen is not part of the Withdrawal Agreement. However, the UK and the European Union agreed that UK nationals will be exempt from visa requirements for short visits in the Schengen area. This means that, after the end of the transition period (from 1 January 2021 onwards), UK nationals will have a limitation of the days they can spend visa-free in the Schengen area (a maximum of 90 days in every 180 days).

If you are resident in a Schengen member state, such as Portugal, you have no limitation of time you can spend in your country of residence, and the time spent in that country does not count for the 90 days.

Another exception is transiting – crossing without staying – via a Schengen country to enter the country of residence. Since this is not consider a stay, the days you spend crossing should not count for the 90 days.

I hope this clears up any confusion in this matter.

Kind regards

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Sounds like you can return to your EU country of residence to stop accumulating "Schengen days" which count towards the 90 allowed. This was my understanding and that of my US friends who currently reside in Germany under this scheme.

Not sure how they police it though, one American friend who is effectively in this situation now travelled to Croatia with me by car - the only place her passport and residence permit was checked was the Slovenia/Croatia border because Croatia is not yet part of the Schengen area. The borders between Germany - Austria, Austria - Italy, Italy - Slovenia were all barrier and check free.

There are obviously checks anywhere where a passport is used - so airports, even on internal EU flights etc. - but vehicles face very few checks.

Law is here .... EUR-Lex - 32016R0399 - EN - EUR-Lex

Looks like in the absence of internal Schengen border checks, they will spot check and try to ascertain from documentary evidence if the 90 days has been exceeded or if there is a quantifiable risk that it will be .... obviously where passports are used, e.g. airports, it will all be checked.

Supporting documents to verify the fulfilment of entry conditions

The documentary evidence referred to in Article 6(3) may include the following:

(a) for business trips:

(i) an invitation from a firm or an authority to attend meetings, conferences or events connected with trade, industry or work;

(ii) other documents which show the existence of trade relations or relations for work purposes;

(iii) entry tickets for fairs and congresses if attending one;


(b) for journeys undertaken for the purposes of study or other types of training:

(i) a certificate of enrolment at a teaching institute for the purposes of attending vocational or theoretical courses in the framework of basic and further training;

(ii) student cards or certificates for the courses attended;


(c) for journeys undertaken for the purposes of tourism or for private reasons:

(i) supporting documents as regards lodging:
- an invitation from the host if staying with one;
- a supporting document from the establishment providing lodging or any other appropriate document indicating the accommodation envisaged;

(ii) supporting documents as regards the itinerary:
- confirmation of the booking of an organised trip or any other appropriate document indicating the envisaged travel plans;

(iii) supporting documents as regards return:
- a return or round-trip ticket;

(d) for journeys undertaken for political, scientific, cultural, sports or religious events or other reasons:

invitations, entry tickets, enrolments or programmes stating wherever possible the name of the host organisation and the length of stay or any other appropriate document indicating the purpose of the visit.

 

[nortada]

Double post.

 

[nortada]

Great work Graham, please confirm the date you received this second response (in red).

As the Ambassador’s comment were to Brits residents in Portugal, who in the main, had little interest in any travel, other than between the UK and Portugal, I don’t think he was addressing longer term tourist (cruisers) situation, some who want to be able to travel around The EU without any time limit. Therefore, I put more weight on the responses you have got from Brussels.

My understanding is that there will no no time limits on time spent in the UK or your host country (Portugal) and the time spent in Portugal will not count against the 90 days in 180 in other Schengen countries. However, Brits will only be able to spend up to 90 days in 180 in any other Schengen country.

There will be a dispensation that provided it is a direct journey (with minimal stopovers) the time Brits take travelling through Schengen territory to their host country (and back) will not count against their 90 days.

How could this be policedWhen entering a Schengen country (other than your host country), your passport will be stamped; when you enter Portugal your passport will be stamped to show how many days you spent in Schengen territory. When travelling direct (by air), your passport will not be stamped. If sailing, your passport will be stamped when you arrive in a Schengen country and stamped when you leave.

Bottom line, like everybody else, I haven’t a clue how it will work out but the above could work.

Also expect every country will live by it’s own interpretation of the rules.

We live in interesting times.

 

[Stork_III]

If you enter Schengen via France to transit to Portugal, presumably passport details will be logged on to the EU system? If you then return to UK via France, say 6 months later and your passport is again logged, the system will show you as having exceeded the 90 day Schengen limit, and you will be fined and barred from re-entry? Entry direct to Portugal presumably won't be logged with a residency certificate to show, but if you return via France the system will show you never entered Schengen legitimately?

 

[Old Harry]

If you enter Schengen via France to transit to Portugal, presumably passport details will be logged on to the EU system? If you then return to UK via France, say 6 months later and your passport is again logged, the system will show you as having exceeded the 90 day Schengen limit, and you will be fined and barred from re-entry? Entry direct to Portugal presumably won't be logged with a residency certificate to show, but if you return via France the system will show you never entered Schengen legitimately?

The EU travel works ok at the moment

 

[nortada]

If you enter Schengen via France to transit to Portugal, presumably passport details will be logged on to the EU system? If you then return to UK via France, say 6 months later and your passport is again logged, the system will show you as having exceeded the 90 day Schengen limit, and you will be fined and barred from re-entry? Entry direct to Portugal presumably won't be logged with a residency certificate to show, but if you return via France the system will show you never entered Schengen legitimately?

You will have to register your arrival in Portugal but with open boarders not sure how this can be achieved.

Makes a strong argument for flying.

 

[greeny]

Just collect documentary evidence to show you have been living in the country of residence, Portugal in our case. Utility bills, petrol receipts, supermarket shopping receipts, any ad hoc flights back to uk, all paid on your bank card. All dated and paid for by yourself in your country of residence. This will show where you have been living. If challenged then you can demonstrate where you have been.
Not too difficult.

 

[nortada]

Just collect documentary evidence to show you have been living in the country of residence, Portugal in our case. Utility bills, petrol receipts, supermarket shopping receipts, any ad hoc flights back to uk, all paid on your bank card. All dated and paid for by yourself in your country of residence. This will show where you have been living. If challenged then you can demonstrate where you have been.
Not too difficult.

Provided 'the official' accepts this as evidence - more likely they will require more formal evidence. No problem when transiting between the UK and the Shengen Zone (stamp in Passport?) but not so easy when travelling between Schengen Zone countries who have no boarder controls.

With Faro the local airhead, I suspect travel between the Algarve and Andalusia (A22 over the Guadiana Bridge) will be swept under the carpet and forgotten about.

 

[greeny]

Don't really know what formal evidence they can ask for if they have no system in place to provide formal evidence. I used my brittany ferry tickets and petrol receipts from uk and Spain to prove my car had not been in the country for more than 6 months when I got stopped in a UK car a few years ago. Fiscal police were happy with that as proof. If you pay for things with your bank card then it "proves" where you were at the time. They wouldn't be able to ignore that. Drawing cash from a cash machine also leaves that footprint you need to show where you were at any given time.
Like you say, the travel over the bridge is unlikely to give us any problems.

 

[Graham376]

Great work Graham, please confirm the date you received this second response (in red).

Yesterday, date as posting.

 

[Graham376]

If you enter Schengen via France to transit to Portugal, presumably passport details will be logged on to the EU system? If you then return to UK via France, say 6 months later and your passport is again logged, the system will show you as having exceeded the 90 day Schengen limit, and you will be fined and barred from re-entry? Entry direct to Portugal presumably won't be logged with a residency certificate to show, but if you return via France the system will show you never entered Schengen legitimately?

Yes, if you don't have residence in one of the States, temporary ban and fine is quite possible. For residents, I've posted the answer from EU above.

 

[atol]

there could be a simple solution for this problem if the eu does not want to lose tourism from yachts,and that is to issue crew with shore passes whilst holding passports and stopping the 90 day clock.
we are after all seafarers,this system is still in place for all commercial vessels with non eu crew so they can have time on shore whilst in port

 

[stranded]

there could be a simple solution for this problem if the eu does not want to lose tourism from yachts,and that is to issue crew with shore passes whilst holding passports and stopping the 90 day clock.
we are after all seafarers,this system is still in place for all commercial vessels with non eu crew so they can have time on shore whilst in port

I very much doubt the EU gives a flying fig about losing business from cruising yachts - Most seem to be in a very tight budget so it must be a minuscule income stream nationally, even if it might hurt a few businesses in the crossroads destinations.

 

[Mistroma]

there could be a simple solution for this problem if the eu does not want to lose tourism from yachts,and that is to issue crew with shore passes whilst holding passports and stopping the 90 day clock.
we are after all seafarers,this system is still in place for all commercial vessels with non eu crew so they can have time on shore whilst in port

Not certain how well that would work in Greece. Do you hand over your passport when arriving in the country or every time you arrive at a new port? You would have to depart from the same place you booked into Greece and handed over your passport. Not happy to leave my passport with the PP in Greece. What do you do if stopped and asked to produce your passport? I guess they could provide a document to show where your passport was being held.

 

[atol]

who knows anyway at the moment,best is to vote with our feet,carribean looks pretty good if you want to miss the winterin the uk.90 days on the way out from europe,and 90 days on the way back from the caribean 6 moths later covers the eu travel restrictions

same between greece and turkey etc

 

[atol]

Not certain how well that would work in Greece. Do you hand over your passport when arriving in the country or every time you arrive at a new port? You would have to depart from the same place you booked into Greece and handed over your passport. Not happy to leave my passport with the PP in Greece. What do you do if stopped and asked to produce your passport? I guess they could provide a document to show where yor passport was being held.

as turkey is so close you could alternate so not really an issue there

 

[atol]

I very much doubt the EU gives a flying fig about losing business from cruising yachts - Most seem to be in a very tight budget so it must be a minuscule income stream nationally, even if it might hurt a few businesses in the crossroads destinations.

this reminds me of a survey the chamber for local business did in mallorca ,and they were very surprised to find that yachting and superyachting generated more income for the island than all the types of other tourism put together
on the island.

 

[stranded]

That surprises me too, but clearly yachting is big business, but I was referring to the long term cruising contingent, who surely are a small fraction of the whole - but must confess this is based on impressions rather than research.

 

[nortada]

there could be a simple solution for this problem if the eu does not want to lose tourism from yachts,and that is to issue crew with shore passes whilst holding passports and stopping the 90 day clock.
we are after all seafarers,this system is still in place for all commercial vessels with non eu crew so they can have time on shore whilst in port

This is anything but simple and they are not going to turn the world on it’s head for a few yotties.

Additionally, tourists will not spend +90 days in Schengen countries - this is more about liveaboards and long stay Brits, who can resolve the situation by taking residency in an EU country.

They will then be able to spend unlimited time in the EU and their host country of residence and still spend up to 90 days in any 180 in any/all other Schengen countries

Thanks to Graham getting this clarification, it would appear that the issue of freedom of movement for cruising yachts, longer stay visitors and liveaboards has been resolved.??

Just get residency in the EU country of your choice - if they will have you?