E10 petrol and outboards

[oldmanofthehills]

I have no concerns about using petrol as supplied at the pump.
If I were to have any, it would be with regard to how the oil mixes with different petrol formulations, but I would assume that the oil manufacturers would be on top of it.

I my youth, some of us used castor oil in our two stroke mixes to give pleasanter smelling and perhaps less smoky exhausts. The Aerial needed a lot of oil and produced quite a plume. Others used simple engine oil. All oils will dissolve in petrol.

Two stroke specific additive oil has various additives to improve stability/performance etc, but I cant see how the additional of moderate ethanol would impact them

 

[Refueler]

I my youth, some of us used castor oil in our two stroke mixes to give pleasanter smelling and perhaps less smoky exhausts. The Aerial needed a lot of oil and produced quite a plume. Others used simple engine oil. All oils will dissolve in petrol.

Two stroke specific additive oil has various additives to improve stability/performance etc, but I cant see how the additional of moderate ethanol would impact them

There is actually a slight change in mixing - but so insignificant as to be ignored.

Castor .... even back to WW1 and before ... Castor was a lub for most engines .. its actually reason many WW1 pilots had diarrhoea - from the mouthfuls of Castor they ingested while flying from their rotary engines. True .. check it out !
2T oil though - is definitely specific .. Air cooled and Water cooled versions. It doesn't hurt to run each in other .. but not recc'd.

 

[Rum Run]

There is actually a slight change in mixing - but so insignificant as to be ignored.

Castor .... even back to WW1 and before ... Castor was a lub for most engines .. its actually reason many WW1 pilots had diarrhoea - from the mouthfuls of Castor they ingested while flying from their rotary engines. True .. check it out !
2T oil though - is definitely specific .. Air cooled and Water cooled versions. It doesn't hurt to run each in other .. but not recc'd.

I suspect that flying a Sopwith Camel in combat conditions was not conducive to constipation even without the castor oil ?

 

[Refueler]

I suspect that flying a Sopwith Camel in combat conditions was not conducive to constipation even without the castor oil ?

There's a YT video of a guy who flies replica WW1 scouts and he actually mentions that the WW1 ground crews were not too happy with the 'clean-up' jobs some pilots left cockpits in ... so I suspect the joke may actually be more truthful than intended !

 

[Beneteau381]

Alcohol does not attract water, it mixes with water already there.

If the diluted alcohol stays in suspension with petrol then it simply passes through carburation and into engine. Might cool combustion very slightly but water boost was well used to increase power back in the day.

If the alcohol solution is so water rich that it separates out, then that is no worse than the same water condensing in the tank and dropping to the bottom. All the water will have done then is purge the fuel mixture of some alcohol which might conceivably change the octane rating, but if you had that much water vapour around then the settling of water in bottom of tank or bottom of float chamber will cause you issues anyway

Petrol will also contain some water anyway.

Note the inverted commas. Any water in suspension is bad, the light ends of the fuel will evaporate in a not used for some time engine and leave water inthe float bowl to react with steel in the case of a honda or aluminium in most others, thats why I am seeing more and more problems with a gel like solution in alumimium float bowls. E10 isgiung to make it worse

 

[Beneteau381]

Correct.

Note the use of inverted commas

 

[Beneteau381]

You have 3 options

1. Use the E10 and replace parts (eg fuel hoses, and pump diaphragms ) as necessary.

2. Replace all the parts which might be affected now and use E10 but check with your dealer. Your engine might already be E10 compatible.

3. Use 98 octane , which at present remains E5

Your choice!
.

Or Aspen

 

[Beneteau381]

Situation is actually pretty clear. I've just bought a new 4 stroke outboard and the instructions are full of it. Most modern engines will run on E10 but because we dont use a lot of fuel it tends to sit in the tank and you have a risk of phase separation where the ethanol portion separates out. This will damage the engine if used and it cannot be reintegrated into the fuel by shaking/mixing etc. To quote
"increasing the percentage of ethanol in the fuel can worsen these adverse effects. Some of these adverse effects are caused because the ethanol in the gasoline can absorb moisture from the air resulting in a separation of the water/ethanol from the gasoline in the fuel tank. These may cause increased:
Corrosion of metal parts
Deterioration of rubber or plastic
Fuel permeation through fuel lines
Starting and operating difficulties

They recommend an in line water separating filter

They then recommend avoiding storing gasoline in the fuel tank for long periods
I have switched to AFAIK the only ethanol free fuel readily available in the UK which is Esso Supreme. There are parts of the country where even this has 5% ethanol. Check their website. The supreme still has the E5 sticker on it but their website assures us that it is actually ethanol free.
Apologies if I am repeating some stuff from other posts but I thought a condensed view together with quotes from Tohatsu might help

Some common sense at last

 

[Beneteau381]

I my youth, some of us used castor oil in our two stroke mixes to give pleasanter smelling and perhaps less smoky exhausts. The Aerial needed a lot of oil and produced quite a plume. Others used simple engine oil. All oils will dissolve in petrol.

Two stroke specific additive oil has various additives to improve stability/performance etc, but I cant see how the additional of moderate ethanol would impact them

Some of us put a little Castrol R in our 4 stroke tanks to make the exhaust smell as if we were at Oulton Park. None of us mixed Castrol R as a two stroke mix for our Ariel Arrows, (note the spelling) we used two stroke mix out of a dedicated dispenser at 16- 1 or it could have been 25-1. It was a big no no. Castrol R and mineral oil mixed isnt agood idea now and wasnt then.

 

[Refueler]

Some of us put a little Castrol R in our 4 stroke tanks to make the exhaust smell as if we were at Oulton Park. None of us mixed Castrol R as a two stroke mix for our Ariel Arrows, (note the spelling) we used two stroke mix out of a dedicated dispenser at 16- 1 or it could have been 25-1. It was a big no no. Castrol R and mineral oil mixed isnt agood idea now and wasnt then.

Ok - I'm donning flak jacket now .........

Memories - rolling into petrol station and lifting the seat of the Lambretta ... opening tank and setting the dispenser dial to 20-1 ... turn handle to pump in the half gallon or so I could afford that week !
If I really felt 'flush' - a quick shot of Redex as well !

Only time I was extra careful about fuel mix was for my Aerokart Class 1 ... Villiers 9E3 engine ....

My older brother and his girlfriend posing in it ...

Now THAT was an Adrenaline ride ...

 

[mickywillis]

?????

How many do you want?
STA-BIL - Fuel Stabilizers & Additives
B3C Ethanol Shield Fuel Stabiliser 118ml (toolstation.com)
LUCAS ETHANOL FUEL CONDITIONER 16OZ 10576 49807105761 | eBay
Millers EPS Ethanol Protection Additive (motornuts.co.uk)
Ethomix Ethanol Corrosion Inhibitor Additive 250ml (frost.co.uk)

to name just a few!

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Some common sense at last

Except normal ethanol is not actually hygroscopic as only 100 pure anhydrous ethanol is. Otherwise you brandy would dilute itself before you finished the bottle.
The water vapour must already be in the tank waiting to condense and fall into the fuel. Having ethanol wont reduce the ability of the fuel to absorb water harmlessly, indeed possibly quite the opposite. Water is the risk factor not ethanol

Certainly my suzuki 2hp outboard will drink what its given from the nearest filling station. Its carburettor and fuel system will be cleaned once or twice a year, which is probably better than it was treated in the 20 or so years with previous owner. Who knows what fuels and gunge it survived?

 

[Refueler]

How many do you want?
STA-BIL - Fuel Stabilizers & Additives
B3C Ethanol Shield Fuel Stabiliser 118ml (toolstation.com)
LUCAS ETHANOL FUEL CONDITIONER 16OZ 10576 49807105761 | eBay
Millers EPS Ethanol Protection Additive (motornuts.co.uk)
Ethomix Ethanol Corrosion Inhibitor Additive 250ml (frost.co.uk)

to name just a few!

My ??? was based on your wording :

"Or use E10 with an Ethanol additive??"

That wording implies addition of Ethanol - not as you NOW say Ethanol Reduction ...

Anyway - there will be many 'fluids' for you to waste your money on ...

 

[Travelling Westerly]

Except normal ethanol is not actually hygroscopic

4 Things You Need to Know About Ethanol Fuel.

Maybe Ive read the article wrong but they seem to suggest otherwise?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

4 Things You Need to Know About Ethanol Fuel.

Maybe Ive read the article wrong but they seem to suggest otherwise?

Speaking as an ex analytic chemist, I can attest to anhydrous chemicals being strongly hygroscopic. However once they absorb a certain amount of water the effect ceases, and they are no longer anhydrous.

A google search re ethanol quickly gives you conflicting or muddled results as the writers do not really understand the physical properties concerned. I dont know the limits for ethanol but would suggest that 95% strength is probably stable as thats what we were offered when we wanted to get pure alcohol for recent task( making up NHS spec hand sanitiser), certainly by the time you get to my 80% proof rum its stable.

Condensation in fuel tanks is a problem for petrol or diesel but the evidence for alcohol making matters worse is fairly unclear. Brazil and other countries which have added ethanol in large ammounts dont seem to be littered with wrecked engines. Certainly if it was an issue I would expect the fuel suppliers to have any useful additives. I would never trust the aftermarket snake oil salesmen who have a vested interest in convincing you there is a problem and they have the solution

 

[Refueler]

Speaking as an ex analytic chemist, I can attest to anhydrous chemicals being strongly hygroscopic. However once they absorb a certain amount of water the effect ceases, and they are no longer anhydrous.

A google search re ethanol quickly gives you conflicting or muddled results as the writers do not really understand the physical properties concerned. I dont know the limits for ethanol but would suggest that 95% strength is probably stable as thats what we were offered when we wanted to get pure alcohol for recent task( making up NHS spec hand sanitiser), certainly by the time you get to my 80% proof rum its stable.

Condensation in fuel tanks is a problem for petrol or diesel but the evidence for alcohol making matters worse is fairly unclear. Brazil and other countries which have added ethanol in large ammounts dont seem to be littered with wrecked engines. Certainly if it was an issue I would expect the fuel suppliers to have any useful additives. I would never trust the aftermarket snake oil salesmen who have a vested interest in convincing you there is a problem and they have the solution

Central and South America have for years been short on purely hydrocarbon based gasoline. Not because of lack of crude to produce - but commercial interests of certain parties in their countries, sell the crude, have interest in agri as well as the profits from importation of fuel products ... that has led to agri business providing Bio based alternative. Ethanol being used to bump up gasoline. The % used can be substantial and additives are used to combat the effects.
It is fact that gasoline use there has not produced the problems that some here appear to believe happens. Note that in such countries the average age of vehicles can be significantly older ...

 

[Beneteau381]

Speaking as an ex analytic chemist, I can attest to anhydrous chemicals being strongly hygroscopic. However once they absorb a certain amount of water the effect ceases, and they are no longer anhydrous.

A google search re ethanol quickly gives you conflicting or muddled results as the writers do not really understand the physical properties concerned. I dont know the limits for ethanol but would suggest that 95% strength is probably stable as thats what we were offered when we wanted to get pure alcohol for recent task( making up NHS spec hand sanitiser), certainly by the time you get to my 80% proof rum its stable.

Condensation in fuel tanks is a problem for petrol or diesel but the evidence for alcohol making matters worse is fairly unclear. Brazil and other countries which have added ethanol in large ammounts dont seem to be littered with wrecked engines. Certainly if it was an issue I would expect the fuel suppliers to have any useful additives. I would never trust the aftermarket snake oil salesmen who have a vested interest in convincing you there is a problem and they have the solution

stop digging, if you dont know, and your own words say you dont, then stop.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

stop digging, if you dont know, and your own words say you dont, then stop.

I will bow to Refuelers practical experience on fuels, but my dimly remembered chemical background gives me a fair theoretical understanding of how the apparent problem manifests. Are you are a current chemical engineer handling such substances such that you can give me more nuanced information?

 

[Refueler]

I will bow to Refuelers practical experience on fuels, but my dimly remembered chemical background gives me a fair theoretical understanding of how the apparent problem manifests. Are you are a current chemical engineer handling such substances such that you can give me more nuanced information?

I just blend the stuff ... see it at destination as well as at source. Some I have to blend based on 'Clients' instructions - I wouldn't put in an old Belarus tractor - let alone a modern car ! But that's another matter.
Ethanol is a highly political item ... and affected by not only 'Green' interests - but also profiteering by interests outside of the oil co's ...
Oil Co's would much prefer NOT to have to blend such as there are much more effective and easier components to use - but they are frowned on by 'Greens' and those 3rd party interests will not receive their 'profits' from the agri biz.

Its not all Oil Co's being profiteers ... they are forced down these sort of paths by Govts and often misguided 'Greens'.

 

[Beneteau381]

I just blend the stuff ... see it at destination as well as at source. Some I have to blend based on 'Clients' instructions - I wouldn't put in an old Belarus tractor - let alone a modern car ! But that's another matter.
Ethanol is a highly political item ... and affected by not only 'Green' interests - but also profiteering by interests outside of the oil co's ...
Oil Co's would much prefer NOT to have to blend such as there are much more effective and easier components to use - but they are frowned on by 'Greens' and those 3rd party interests will not receive their 'profits' from the agri biz.

Its not all Oil Co's being profiteers ... they are forced down these sort of paths by Govts and often misguided 'Greens'.

And lets not go down the path of using food as a feedstock for fuel!