Dual VAT status?

Graham376

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If you mean any beneteau model not sold in the U.K. before then I would agree. But it can’t be any specific individual Beneteau boat. as much as boats are personal to owners

product = “beneteau 411” not “lucky Lucy”

extending your interpretation would mean that everything from watches to TVs would have to be tested. There is simply not the capacity for that to be done and it misses the point of the objective of this type of legislation.

I hope your interpretation is correct and it only applies to new models of boats imported post Brexit. I don't understand the need to introduce RCR anyway, does UK gov. consider RCD specification unsafe in some way?
 

Tranona

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I think the point is that the new UK RCR is the same as CE following the RCD, so if a boat is CE marked all the data required is available to meet the RCR. This is therefore just a paper exercise - hence the lower limit of £500 for the suggested certification cost rather than the higher costs suggested where a boat needs post construction assessment. This suggests that post 1997 (although maybe post 2008 when the RCD was revised) CE marked boats are OK. This leaves pre 1997 boats where it appears the previous rule that allowed exemption for EEA built boats has been removed putting them in the same position as for example US built boats.

As this regime has not started yet it is possible that changes may be made to deal with these anomalies and it would be wise for anybody contemplating bringing a boat in from the EU to seek more expert advice.
 

Graham376

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I think the point is that the new UK RCR is the same as CE following the RCD, so if a boat is CE marked all the data required is available to meet the RCR. This is therefore just a paper exercise - hence the lower limit of £500 for the suggested certification cost rather than the higher costs suggested where a boat needs post construction assessment. This suggests that post 1997 (although maybe post 2008 when the RCD was revised) CE marked boats are OK. This leaves pre 1997 boats where it appears the previous rule that allowed exemption for EEA built boats has been removed putting them in the same position as for example US built boats.

As this regime has not started yet it is possible that changes may be made to deal with these anomalies and it would be wise for anybody contemplating bringing a boat in from the EU to seek more expert advice.

You've answered the question I've just posed on PBO about difference between RCR & RCD. There are however many questions about status of older boats already in circulation in one territory or the other.
 

dunedin

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You've answered the question I've just posed on PBO about difference between RCR & RCD. There are however many questions about status of older boats already in circulation in one territory or the other.
I am no expert, but I think the potential big GOTCHA (which may or may not apply) is the suggestion that any boat would need to be measured against the rules applicable at the time of import, not at the time of build.

IF this is the case, the big issue is not the differences between RCD and RCR today (probably none), but the differences between RCR/RCD 2021 and RCD when the boat was first built - some decades ago in the OP’s case. If say, a 2000 build boat were to be tested against 2021 RCR/RCD things like the engine would almost certainly fail (thats why things like Volvo D2-55 is no longer on sale, as doesn’t meet morn regulations, and replaced by different D2-50 model).

There seems to be some exemption date for import to UK. But it does seem like it would have to be a very unmissable boat and a very knowledgable owner to be worth the risks and hassle of buying overseas to import to the UK at the moment, until some other punters have been through the process and it becomes cleare.
 

Graham376

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There seems to be some exemption date for import to UK. But it does seem like it would have to be a very unmissable boat and a very knowledgable owner to be worth the risks and hassle of buying overseas to import to the UK at the moment, until some other punters have been through the process and it becomes cleare.

I find the whole area confusing. What for instance counts as an import? Many EU VAT paid used boats purchased in the EU were, over the years, brought to the UK but were they imported (as far as rules go) or, are they just here? There certainly wasn't any formal importation process at that time.

From another point of view, my UK registered boat (1988 pre-rcd) has been in the EU for many years and was there on 31/12. Has it been imported to EU or just still visiting? If I sell it to a UK resident then no importation process there but, if I sell it to someone who wants to place on an EU flag, it could be a different ball game.
 

dunedin

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I find the whole area confusing. What for instance counts as an import? Many EU VAT paid used boats purchased in the EU were, over the years, brought to the UK but were they imported (as far as rules go) or, are they just here? There certainly wasn't any formal importation process at that time.
Yes but at that time we were all in a single market and Customs Union. The position has clearly changed after the thing that bizarrely the Moderators don’t allow to be mentioned, even when directly relevant to practical boating matters.
 

sailaboutvic

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bizarrely the Moderators don’t allow to be mentioned, even when directly relevant to practical boating matters.
Like what ? As I for one am totally confused where ybw is going and like many other my posting have been less and less so not to have posting removed or ban .
Sorry about the thread dift
 

Graham376

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Like what ? As I for one am totally confused where ybw is going and like many other my posting have been less and less so not to have posting removed or ban .
Sorry about the thread dift

Just to add a bit to the drift, my understanding is we can freely discuss the effects of Brexit on sailing (as this thread does) but not the event itself as that immediately starts dissent and political discussion. Mods will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Baggywrinkle

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The effects of Brexit are simply that the UK boat market and the EU boat market have been separated and it has become more costly and complicated to move boats between the two markets.

Individual VAT paid boats, regardless of owners citizenship, residency, or flag state have become either EU goods in free circulation in the EU (meaning they can be sold on in the EU with no further duties), or they have become UK goods (which mean they can be sold on in the UK with no further duties) - and the category they fall into depends on their location overnight on 31.12.2020.

So ...

A UK resident with a VAT paid boat that was in the UK on the 31.12.2020 can move their boat to the EU without paying VAT or duty using Temporary Admission to the EU (18 months) - they can then return it to the UK within the rules governing RGR without it losing its VAT paid status in the UK.

A UK resident with a VAT paid boat that was in the EU on the 31.12.2020 can sell it in the EU as VAT paid, or can currently bring it home under RGR without paying any more VAT or duty.

An EU resident (like me) looking to buy a boat in the UK would have to pay VAT and import duty to then move the boat to the EU regardless of its UK VAT status - making UK VAT paid boats very unattractive, similarly, a UK resident buying a boat in the EU would have to pay VAT and import duty to bring the boat back to the UK - not so much of a problem if it is an EU boat that has never had VAT paid, e.g. an ex-charter boat.

Basically, if a boat changes hands outside the customs area you want to keep it in, then it will attract VAT and import duty when you bring it in.

The RCD, RCR problems just complicate the issue further.

I am currently looking for a replacement for my trusty AWB as it is now sold, and it looks like the UK market is a total non-starter due to the UK leaving the EU customs union. The UK VAT paid boats are 20% overpriced compared to their EU equivalents as that is about what an EU resident would need to pay to move a UK VAT paid boat, bought in the UK, to the EU. Seen lots of really nice looking boats in my search so far and as soon as I notice that the location is the UK (or the US, Caribbean etc.) then I have to discount them - fortunately there are also lots of EU boats to choose from.
 

Graham376

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Tinto

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I haven’t got in much further with the standards element. I was thinking about the importation of Japanese cars into the U.K. and the certification process they go through. It’s like an enhanced MOT which costs a couple of hundred quid. The upper end quoted would likely be for complete custom boats which have little independent certification to begin with as opposed to an item built to well known, understood and respected standards. They are two are very different starting points.

I need to do some reading on engine standards. One boat has an old engine which needs replaced anyway so I can factor that in. I think the 2000 boat may have been re engined anyway
 

dunedin

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sailaboutvic

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That is welcome for many … but doesn’t help in the OP’s situation when buying a boat in the EU.
I believe that the Cruising Association and the RYA, whilst celebrating this major success, are still pushing to try to get the “boat bought in the EU” case resolved, but who knows if HMRC will ever relent on that.
Basically that's the position we in , although it was UK vat paid at the time because we brought it in the EU from the British owner, we would have to pay vat a second time to hrmc if we brought it back to the UK.
But I reckon it's worth more selling it in the EU with EU vat status so when the time come we be selling it in the EU .
 

Beneteau381

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Basically that's the position we in , although it was UK vat paid at the time because we brought it in the EU from the British owner, we would have to pay vat a second time to hrmc if we brought it back to the UK.
But I reckon it's worth more selling it in the EU with EU vat status so when the time come we be selling it in the EU .
Boats in Albufeira, Brit reg, are selling like hot cakes, brokers approching owners to see if they will sell. An old dog of a boat sold this week, albeit cheap, the seller had their hand knocked off. An Azimet 42, owner approached and deal done in a week at same price they paid for it a few years ago.
 

Tranona

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Basically that's the position we in , although it was UK vat paid at the time because we brought it in the EU from the British owner, we would have to pay vat a second time to hrmc if we brought it back to the UK.
But I reckon it's worth more selling it in the EU with EU vat status so when the time come we be selling it in the EU .
Just to clarify, Vic, you would not be paying VAT again or a second time because you did not pay VAT when you bought the boat. The only person who has actually paid VAT in this situation is the original private buyer. VAT is a tax on transactions, not on assets (boats).
 

sailaboutvic

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Just to clarify, Vic, you would not be paying VAT again or a second time because you did not pay VAT when you bought the boat. The only person who has actually paid VAT in this situation is the original private buyer. VAT is a tax on transactions, not on assets (boats).
Your correct in what you say but if I had to pay Vat on it , it make the boat and expenses boat,
Plus as I said our boat isn't a weekend it a cruiser and the price we would get for it as a EU vat paid boat would be much better then selling it for less in the UK and having to pay UK vat on top.
Also if I was buying an non vat paid boat, I be looking at paying a lot less when I brought it.
 

sailaboutvic

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As a matter of interest, when was the C1331 introduced for boats leaving the UK? During several years of trips down to France and then leaving for good in 2006, we never filled one in so, no record of who exported the boat from UK.
Not me Graham but if someone really wanted to bring a boat back they didn't export , it wouldn't be that hard,
I mean all they had to do is fill an 1331 to say they where sailing away and six month later fill one to say they bring or back.
Oh dear maybe I shouldn't had said that
The problem would be when time come to sell if prove is required where the boat was end 2020
 
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