• REMINDER - COVID-19

    Any content, information, or advice found on social media platforms and the wider Internet, including forums such as YBW, should NOT be acted upon unless checked against a reliable, authoritative source, and re-checked, particularly where personal health and liberty is at stake. Seek professional advice/confirmation before acting on such at all times.

    Users who are found to promulgate FAKE NEWS on the forum in regard to this issue, intentional or otherwise, may find their access terminated. It is your responsibility to provide references to bona fide sources.

    FAKE NEWS, in this regard, is that which is posited by organisations, media, etc., that is repeated on the forum, or used to support personal opinion/hypothesis posted by users - FAKE NEWS is not necessarily the personal opinion/hypothesis being posted in itself, any issues with such should be challenged respectfully.

    IN ADDITION it seems that conspiracy theories are finding their way onto the forum. This is not the place for such content. Users who post it may find their access limited or permanently suspended. Please leave it where you find it.

Does anyone still sail without a chart plotter?

LadyInBed

Well-known member
Joined
2 Sep 2001
Messages
13,456
Location
Me - Zumerzet Boat - Wareham
the post i was referring to was criticizing C-map

C-map starts with the raster charts - not with the survey data.
I would really like to see some evidence of that, it seems incredulous to me that C-map would take raster data, devised from vector data and re-vector it!
I've always used C-map cartridges in my plotter and found them excellent.
PS
I've just done a google and found this Jeppesen C-MAP Professional
Which certainly says about its C-MAP Professional+
Dynamic worldwide vector chart database
- DNV type approved
- SENC format, CM-93/3
- Delivered on one DVD
C-MAP Professional+ is an innovative and dynamic worldwide vector chart database mostly derived from paper charts.
The coverage is continuously being expanded and new kinds of supplementary data are frequently added the product.

I suspect it just refers to that NAVTEAM product, not products produced by C-MAP
"NAVTEAM is your knowledge centre and system integrator strategically located in Svendborg, the maritime capital of Denmark. Since 2001 we have grown steadily" Nothing to do with C-MAP.

PPS
To add more to the confusion it looks like C-map do both raster and vector Chart Features | C-MAP
 
Last edited:

siwhi

Active member
Joined
21 Nov 2012
Messages
194
Location
Trstena, Slovakia
I just looked at their website seems to be 70 euros a year for all the UK charts does that include tides and weather? weather4d | GeoGarage Can see the point if travelling a lot but if staying fairly local I guess its not much good. Though the charts are updated quarterly so that adds a fair bit of value if someone was the sort of person to keep their charts that up to date.


I think I've got an ancient full set of CPN vector charts somewhere that I was planning to keep as a back up as well. Might need a more recent version of the program to use them in though. I could test my theory that bugger all changes on charts if I needed to use them.
Re your first point on weather4d: I think the prices have gone up over the last year, and I'm sure I loaded the raster charts of several areas to the cache for free from my folders (I think for example I downloaded NOAA / US and LINZ / NZ and maybe SHOM / France) which covers most of the Pacific, but I can't seem to do that now without paying something. In my opinion even if you pay the annual subscription it's still great value because you get much more than 'just' a chart. The app subscription ($50US) is separate to the chart subscription (depends on area, €70 for UKHO charts), see Comparison Table | Weather4D. You don't actually need to buy the charts to get a lot of value from the app, there is a basemap already in it which is fine for weather routing offshore, but obviously 'not to be used for navigation'.

For the Open CPN charts, most cruisers have the old CM93 charts copied from someone, but again you can add lots of raster charts for, well, a couple of beers usually does it. ;) Or buy them legit from somewhere like visitmyharbour.com where I think £25 covers you from Scotland down to west Africa. Runs on a PC or tablet / app. If you just like looking at charts and dreaming, the LINZ charts cover a good chunk of the world and are free.

Usual shout-outs to London Chartplotters and Visit my Harbour if considering 'alternative' navigation options for UK / European waters.
 

Athomson

Well-known member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
727
For the Open CPN charts, most cruisers have the old CM93 charts copied from someone,
Thats the one. Has anyone done a study of how deadly relying on those charts would be these days? Clearly there could be some surprising wind farms on the voyage but other than that I always wonder how much really changes. Updates being mostly slight changes of buoys, no headlands are moving.
 
Last edited:

Athomson

Well-known member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
727
I've spent hours updating my paper charts am I the only one :eek:
People used to say to me about solo sailing "But don't you get bored" and I'd say no there are always things to do. But I'm starting to wonder if i didn't have kids to manage now as half the jobs have been taken away by technology.
 

siwhi

Active member
Joined
21 Nov 2012
Messages
194
Location
Trstena, Slovakia
Thats the one. Has anyone done a study of how deadly relying on those charts would be these days? Clearly there could be some surprising wind farms on the voyage but other than that I always wonder how much really changes. Updates being mostly slight changes of buoys, no headlands are moving.
There are some parts of the world where no charts are particularly accurate (eg Fiji) but even on the west coast of Ireland there are a few well known inaccuracies. Also for Scotland Antares charts are great for detail the other's don't have. Like many others I have more than a few Navionics, and other chart tracks over dry land, and that's not just temporary GPS errors. I often looked at the CM93 and by and large they are fine, though I didn't like the look of them much. But obviously if you even get the sniff of a change (eg river mouths, port areas, buoyage changes, or see turbines or a crane on the horizon) then apply extra caution or use something more up to date.
 

Never Grumble

Active member
Joined
29 Sep 2019
Messages
250
Thats the one. Has anyone done a study of how deadly relying on those charts would be these days? Clearly there could be some surprising wind farms on the voyage but other than that I always wonder how much really changes. Updates being mostly slight changes of buoys, no headlands are moving.
People used to say to me about solo sailing "But don't you get bored" and I'd say no there are always things to do. But I'm starting to wonder if i didn't have kids to manage now as half the jobs have been taken away by technology.
I quite enjoy sitting down and updating the paper charts, as I do the corrections it means I study some places in detail and allows me to dream of future plans. To be quite honest most are unlikely to have significant impact on a yachtsman, most notable are new buoys or repositioning or removal of existing ones, changes in depths, changes in light/sound/ais characteristics, new wrecks and wind farms. I remember having a yeoman to do these for me, but the skill of doing these changes is pretty much lost to all.

There is always something to do but sat here in lockdown something that can be done at home.
 

Buck Turgidson

Well-known member
Joined
10 Apr 2012
Messages
1,625
Location
Zürich
They do save messing up the charts with all those pesky pencil marks.
I'm fine with or without my iPad but close to hard bits it's always nice to quickly cross check every now and then.
It was fun doing the yachmaster practical test doing x marks the spot with only a brief look at the chart to make some notes then hand bearings and transits to get to the right spot. Of course that would have been considerably easier using the best tool for the job (a plotter) though in my case not much more accurate :cool:
 

Never Grumble

Active member
Joined
29 Sep 2019
Messages
250
No, But spent many hours doing some one else’s.
one of my particular favourites.
Sea mount depth 150 reported 140. ahhhhhh. Grrrrrr.
You want to try doing the corrections on the admiralty leisure charts where they've been shrunk in size, even . The other thing I gained from doing them was also a reminder of the source data, which was a reminder of how dated (and therefore of questionable accuracy) some of it is particularly in the smaller harbours we venture into.
 

Dan Tribe

Well-known member
Joined
3 Jun 2017
Messages
1,063
No matter where i am in a building or outdoors I reckon I can always point roughly to north if asked. My wife and countless like her, inside their own house point to indicate somewhere nearby and are pointing in completely the wrong direction. I'm pretty sure its learnt though. I just pay attention to that sort of thing so know the rough orientation of any building I'm in relative to a map I looked at to get there. While she was driven there.
There must be something in that. In the UK, I always have a rough idea of where North is. In Australia however, that ability deserts me and can easily get lost.
 

Athomson

Well-known member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
727
There are some parts of the world where no charts are particularly accurate (eg Fiji) but even on the west coast of Ireland there are a few well known inaccuracies. Also for Scotland Antares charts are great for detail the other's don't have. Like many others I have more than a few Navionics, and other chart tracks over dry land, and that's not just temporary GPS errors. I often looked at the CM93 and by and large they are fine, though I didn't like the look of them much. But obviously if you even get the sniff of a change (eg river mouths, port areas, buoyage changes, or see turbines or a crane on the horizon) then apply extra caution or use something more up to date.
Just looked up Antares which looks great and nice to see some people have managed to make an interesting job for themselves like that. Not my area though. Led to this gent who I may well buy from Londonchartplotters

Checked the OpenCPN website and found all the free European Inland waters charts, amazing resource especially for someone with a wheelhouse that can have their laptop there. Saying that though we should be able to navigate up any river without a chart using the buoyage rather than yet more screen time. Still would be mad not to take advantage of the free and cheap stuff available now. I downloaded the dutch waterways to look at and remembered what I'd found before with OpenCPN it only displays the chart at quite a close zoom so there is no way to passage plan with those free charts. Maybe if i dig out the CM93 charts I guess they will do for an overview (can't remember if it covered inland though) and then the up to date charts are there for buoyage etc when zoomed in. Its putting a heavy burden on my ram, surprising considering its vector charts.
 
Last edited:

Athomson

Well-known member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
727
The other thing I gained from doing them was also a reminder of the source data, which was a reminder of how dated (and therefore of questionable accuracy) some of it is particularly in the smaller harbours we venture into.
or a reminder of how little changes? If there was a question of accuracy wouldn't they have updated it?
 

Athomson

Well-known member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
727
There must be something in that. In the UK, I always have a rough idea of where North is. In Australia however, that ability deserts me and can easily get lost.
Interesting! The maps are all oriented north there aren't they? 🙃 If so I wonder why its harder there?

I guess its not as much of a given as it seems that Australian maps are north up, Australian maps of the world have outrageously placed themselves in the centre and us on the edge and its probably only because the UK is in the northern hemisphere that we consider the proper way the globe should be is with us on top.
 

Dan Tribe

Well-known member
Joined
3 Jun 2017
Messages
1,063
Interesting! The maps are all oriented north there aren't they? 🙃 If so I wonder why its harder there?

I guess its not as much of a given as it seems that Australian maps are north up, Australian maps of the world have outrageously placed themselves in the centre and us on the edge and its probably only because the UK is in the northern hemisphere that we consider the proper way the globe should be is with us on top.
I agree, it's strange. Perhaps it's to do with the Sun's position or polarised light or something. All a bit New Age weird.
The Aussies have turned their moon upside down!
 
Top