Deck chute?

[RJJ]

I've been toying with a snuffer for 45 foot AWB. I want to use our symmetric spinnaker short-handed - ideally, be able to douse it single-handed.

Then I've been puzzling on a deck-chute. I wondered if anyone else has tried one? A sailmaker tells me they work well but only with a high-speed winch of some kind; he figured without it I'd be at risk of losing control of the halyard faster than I could pull in the retrieval line, and I'd be better off with a snuffer.

I'm still puzzling. I'd be able to rig the retrieval line onto one coach-roof winch, with the halyard drop controlled on the opposite one. I figure I'd be able to pull in (and control) armfuls of the retrieval line while easing the halyard a few feet at at time. Once the sail's collapsed, there's not much load on the halyard and it would suffice to have a couple of turns on the winch - maybe with the tail thrown overboard.

Advantages of the deck-chute - dousing the sail without leaving the cockpit, and fully hoisting the sail without an ugly neckerchief.

 

[Bobc]

Snuffers work fine. We've used our on our 49 for years with just me and SWMBO

 

[jamie N]

I've made one for my Folkboat. It's a copy from the elements of any of the zillions seen on racing dinghies, and only took a few hours to make. It's easy to fabricate, and can be made to your own boat. The yellow items are fishing floats that rotate on a 'formed' plastic bar, which has carabiner's at their ends to fasten to the deck. The net is material bought online and sewn to fit. Total cost about £10.00, plus carabiner's which I had from work anyway!
No pics of it on the boat, but you'll see the idea.

 

[RJJ]

I've made one for my Folkboat. It's a copy from the elements of any of the zillions seen on racing dinghies, and only took a few hours to make. It's easy to fabricate, and can be made to your own boat. The yellow items are fishing floats that rotate on a 'formed' plastic bar, which has carabiner's at their ends to fasten to the deck. The net is material bought online and sewn to fit. Total cost about £10.00, plus carabiner's which I had from work anyway!
No pics of it on the boat, but you'll see the idea.



View attachment 112569

Thanks, looks great, actually it was you that gave me the idea!

The sailmaker's view was I wouldnt' be able (on a 45 footer, without any fancy high-speed winch) to haul the retrieval line in fast enough to keep the kite out of the drink. I'm still tempted...but it would be an expensive exercise if he's right!

 

[Ingwe]

I have a first / seascape 18 which is about the largest boat I have seen with the type of on deck system that you are considering (under deck systems are what is generally used on larger boats). There are good reasons that this type of system isn't used on larger boats.

The first one is the length of the sock that you need is the distance from the center of the sail (where the retrieval line will be attached) to the head so possibly 15 foot on your boat. The next issue is that you need a big enough mouth on the sock to keep the friction down - I am guessing here but you will probably need a 50 to 60cm diam mouth which on most boats would be completely impractical because it will get in the way of tracking the headsail.

Finally you haven't thought this through if you think controlling the halyard will keep the sail out of the water as the takedown line has to be attached to the center of the sail so unless you are quick the clew is going in the water and unless you have a retractable pole a fair bit of the foot of the sail will go in the water as well.

To give you a better idea of how this type of system needs to be set up have a look at First 18 SE Gennaker snuffer system

 

[jamie N]

Go for it! Actually, how about thinking through a simple method of keeping a minimal amount of tension on the halyard, so that you've actually got to apply a small amount of tension to the downhaul to overcome the halyard keeping the sail out of the oggin, say like routing it for downhaul so that the halyard travels across a few 'obstacles' to maintain a slight tension for example.

 

[jamie N]

The next issue is that you need a big enough mouth on the sock to keep the friction down - I am guessing here but you will probably need a 50 to 60cm diam mouth which on most boats would be completely impractical because it will get in the way of tracking the headsail.

For my system the friction isn't a problem as it has rollers which do remove that problem. At the bottom of of my chute there are the carabiner's which are there so that the 'chute assembly can be removed and stowed below.

 

[RJJ]

Actually, how about thinking through a simple method of keeping a minimal amount of tension on the halyard, so that you've actually got to apply a small amount of tension to the downhaul to overcome the halyard keeping the sail out of the oggin,

Standard guidance for short-handers seems to be chuck the tail overboard. Drag from the water (on 40 feet of halyard) plus a turn or two around the rooftop winch adds up to quite a lot of friction. Once the sail's collapsed, I'm told that people gathering into the cockpit usually have to put a hand to it and help the halyard on its way.

For my system the friction isn't a problem as it has rollers which do remove that problem. At the bottom of of my chute there are the carabiner's which are there so that the 'chute assembly can be removed and stowed below.

Do you need to suspend the top of the hoop? or is there enough stiffness in the rollers to maintain the semicircular shape, attached only to the deck?

 

[flaming]

Thanks, looks great, actually it was you that gave me the idea!

The sailmaker's view was I wouldnt' be able (on a 45 footer, without any fancy high-speed winch) to haul the retrieval line in fast enough to keep the kite out of the drink. I'm still tempted...but it would be an expensive exercise if he's right!

your sailmaker is thinking of this...
[video]

But I kinda suspect he's right. On significantly smaller boats we use 3 guys, including one below, to get the kite down. Couple of our kites have retrieval lines and even with our regular bow crew, one of whom is a complete gym monkey, hauling on that line keeping it out of the drink is not an insignificant challenge.

 

[jamie N]

I don't know about your 1st point, sorry.
The hoop doesn't need to be suspended as the carabiner's act as a hinge, if you see my meaning. When the spinnaker is being deployed or doused, the hoop will naturally lift off of the deck by the tension on the sail and the downhaul or halyard, and take up an angle to open the hoop and allow the spinnaker space. This is where the rollers are important, as it minimises any friction at the mouth.
Flaming's video: That's slick isn't it! Probably not the 1st time that team's done that!

 

[flaming]

Flaming's video: That's slick isn't it! Probably not the 1st time that team's done that!

The TP52s think 3 seconds from kite pulling to entire kite below decks is a good drop, and 5 seconds a poor one...

 

[TernVI]

On a dinghy with a retrieval line and chute, the retrieval line is usually the tail of the halyard, which possible helps with control.
I believe the Impala 28 originally led its kit through a ring in the pulpit?
I think there's an ancient Impala kite in my mate's loft with a downhaul patch or two....

Big problem will be kite snagging on stanchions and so forth.
Also if you've gybed, the downhaul line may be the wrong side of the genoa.
The easiest dinghies have the chute in front of the forestay for a reason.
But this usually means a small chute, and a big sail takes some persuasion to go through a small hole.
I once made the mistake of getting a dinghy kite in a slightly heavier cloth, bad idea, took two of us to pull it down the chute!

Dinghy kite chutes have been around for decades, I rather suspect a couple of generations of dinghy sailors have moved up to yachts, tried chutes and abandoned them?
Didn't Gary Hoyt have a system?
What about Transat Minis?

As well as chutes, some of the more technical dinghies have systems where you can set the pole and gybe etc without going forwards, all done by pulling string.

 

[crewman]

Sonatas originally fed the spinnaker through a pulpit hoop into an internal cloth chute. The end of the halyard was connected to a patch on the centre of the sail . The system worked and gave good control but had a lot of friction so tended to be slow. Most have switched to a switched to a system with the spinnaker bag in the companion way, which gives much quicker hoists and drops.

 

[RJJ]

Thanks folks. I'm picking up the scepticism. I was thinking one person could heave the retrieval line from a handy position in the cockpit while controlling the halyard drop; I still think it's possible and the speed isn't a massive issue, but the problem is what if it goes wrong; if I lose control of either halyard or retrieval line halfway down and there's nobody on the foredeck.

It's not much use to me if I can't delegate it to someone less experienced. So a snuffer it probably is.

 

[flaming]

Thanks folks. I'm picking up the scepticism. I was thinking one person could heave the retrieval line from a handy position in the cockpit while controlling the halyard drop; I still think it's possible and the speed isn't a massive issue, but the problem is what if it goes wrong; if I lose control of either halyard or retrieval line halfway down and there's nobody on the foredeck.

It's not much use to me if I can't delegate it to someone less experienced. So a snuffer it probably is.

The big issue is that retrieval line drops start differently.

When you are dropping by pulling on one corner, you (obviously) only let go of the other lower corner and pull the kite towards the corner that you have hold of, then start on the halyard. So the kite is fairly well under control and stays fairly close to the boat. When you are pulling on a retrieval line on the centre of the kite you need to instantly depower the kite, if any corner stays powered up you'll have no chance of pulling the line. So you have to blow all 3 basically together. Have a look at that video again, see how they basically dump all 3 corners before they start on the retrieval line. It works because as soon as they start on the line the kite is just sucked into the boat. 1 person pulling is never going to be able to do that.

Here's another video, comparing letterbox and retrieval line drops on more "normal" boats. It's very interesting stuff, but note the number of people heaving on the retrieval line. For a 45 footer's kite shorthanded, I'm going letterbox in everything over drifting conditions.

 

[pmnfernando]

it has been 2 years plus, thought it was a good time to see what happened to the deck chute idea!!

 

[Mudisox]

The TP52s think 3 seconds from kite pulling to entire kite below decks is a good drop, and 5 seconds a poor oBoat problems, house repairs and some health issues mean we have had only 10 days on the boat this year and that was blighted by engine problems and very windy weather, but at least we got to explore upriver from Dartmouth!
I see SW weather forescast is showiing rain until the end of this month.. What sort of a sailing season are others having this year?

We allowed 10 seconds for the hoist on Drum, back in the late 80s, and 15 for the drop but we were allowed and used stops then.

 

[jamie N]

My item that I photographed in post#3 didn't work well enough, due to the spinnaker material sticking slightly to the yellow rollers, and thus wrapping around and jamming itself on recovery. The Mk.2 version is basically a rectangle made from plastic piping, joined at the corners by the relevant pipe right angle bends, with the bag attached to it.
It works perfectly every time, and is very easily fitted and removed from its deck location.

 

[pmnfernando]

My item that I photographed in post#3 didn't work well enough, due to the spinnaker material sticking slightly to the yellow rollers, and thus wrapping around and jamming itself on recovery. The Mk.2 version is basically a rectangle made from plastic piping, joined at the corners by the relevant pipe right angle bends, with the bag attached to it.
It works perfectly every time, and is very easily fitted and removed from its deck location.

thats great you got it working.
just regular pvc pipe and their fittings? thats pretty easy to source.
what material did you use for the bag?

 

[jamie N]

Exactly right, it was the most basic of PVC pipe and fittings.
I bought some netting and sewed it up to match my spinnaker, just like any other spinnaker 'sock' really.
This is it before I'd finalised how the mouth was going to be attached at the bow, which is now by small carabina's to fittings at the bow.