Cruising Association/Knox Johnson open letter re 90/180 day problem

[Sandy]

As I said....can we be constructive here?

It sounds extremely constructive to me.

With a population of 65 million and very few boaters, most of whom don't leave Lake Solent and usually charter in the Med, there is a miniscule market of Brits who need to stay more than 90 days in 180. As I have said on other posts if people want to stay longer in the Med they need to start understanding the rules and do what everybody from third countries need to do. If my American friends can do it why not my British ones?

If I go to the USofA what sort of "visa free" days can I have? In the case of the USofA none.

 

[Quiddle]

The case for this is dead on its feet unless enough EU countries - e.g. Greece, Spain, Portugal, think they are going to lose serious revenue by limiting our length of stay to 90 days. And I doubt whether they will.

We are now in the same position that Americans, Canadians, Australians etc have been in for many years. Countries that allow EU residents to stay 180 days with the possibility of extension, while in exchange the EU offers just 90 days at a time with little possibility of extension. Why would the EU make an exception for us?

My understanding is that individual EU states can agree 180/360 deals. Italy has such an arrangement with Australia.

Visa Requirements in Europe (EU-Shengen Zone).

Yachties better join the queue behind others bleating about EU access, though, such as the disgusting hypocrite Roger Daltry, who actively campaigned for Brexit.

Roger Daltrey responds to backlash over post-Brexit music touring comments

 

[LittleSister]

We are now in the same position that Americans, Canadians, Australians etc have been in for many years.

Except they have to journey thousands of miles to get to the EU, which somewhat limits the numbers and types of sailors affected, while we are only 22 miles away from France.

 

[Quiddle]

Except they have to journey thousands of miles to get to the EU, which somewhat limits the numbers and types of sailors affected, while we are only 22 miles away from France.

Absolutely. Wonder how many Aussie truckers have their ham sarnies confiscated by Dutch Customs?

 

[goeasy123]

Absolutely. Wonder how many Aussie truckers have their ham sarnies confiscated by Dutch Customs?

We might be getting to something constructive here.

How about a campaign to enable all 3rd country cruisers to sail freely through out the EU?.... spend their money, share cultures and spread good will around the world.

Bloody Brits.... it's all "me, me, me, I, I, I".

 

[nortada]

We might be getting to something constructive here.

How about a campaign to enable all 3rd country cruisers to sail freely through out the EU?.... spend their money, share cultures and spread good will around the world.

Bloody Brits.... it's all "me, me, me, I, I, I".

Whilst I applauded you initiative, I am not sure about your last line, as a longterm Brit abroad, I do not recognise your description of Bloody Brits. Quite the opposite, Brits are often at the forefront of social and charitable activities and their efforts are well appreciated by local communities.

This subject is currently active as 2 identical threads; one in Scuttlebutt, the other in here, supported by largely two different groups of contributors.

Interesting to see the differing attitudes between the 2 threads. It appears that even in these forums we do not present a united front. Rather some would like to continue with recriminations and lost causes.

Unfortunately, as said before, I think we will be stuck with the 90/180 Schengen Rule for a number of years so the best we can hope for is for ‘friendly EU countries, with an eye to their economies, striking bilateral deals (Greece, Portugal etc.).

Rather than trying to amend EU Schengen regulations, this is where we should be concentrating our efforts.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Did I miss the necessary case for extending the time in the EU if we voted for Brexit ?

As if as it appears all other non EU countries have limited staying oportunities should not those that are effected , or were going to be effected , made their case !

Were them actually 'asleep on the job' I ask ?

Just perhaps if them that prefer the EU had made a far better case for remaining in the EU then we, as a Country, might not have voted to leave ?

Mind you it might have been an uphill endeavour as them that like the EU holidaying / partial imigrants lifestyle possibily not Labour Politically !

Just a thought !

 

[st599]

Can we be constructive here? Can I ask the forum.....

Is it realistic for the CA to be successful in getting more than 90/180?

What do they have to do to succeed?

What are the major hurdles to overcome? Are there any absolute deal stoppers?

According to the RYA and an MP, it was offered and the UK rejected it.

The EU offered 6 months visa free for all UK citizens if the UK reciprocated. The UK wanted to choose who got 6 month access and refused.

So to answer the question, they need to get the UK government to adopt a less hardline approach and allow all EU citizens visa free access to the UK.

 

[Sandy]

According to the RYA and an MP, it was offered and the UK rejected it.

The EU offered 6 months visa free for all UK citizens if the UK reciprocated. The UK wanted to choose who got 6 month access and refused.

So to answer the question, they need to get the UK government to adopt a less hardline approach and allow all EU citizens visa free access to the UK.

Problem is a 'hard line' gets the current administration votes.

 

[doug748]

.................
Bloody Brits.... it's all "me, me, me, I, I, I".

Whilst I applauded you initiative, I am not sure about your last line, as a longterm Brit abroad, I do not recognise your description of Bloody Brits. Quite the opposite, Brits are often at the forefront of social and charitable activities and their efforts are well appreciated by local communities.
.........

Indeed.

UK is in eighth place in terms of charity donations, massively in front of many in the Western World and, of it's near neighbours,
only beaten by Ireland, Holland and Switzerland.

.

 

[nortada]

Indeed.

UK is in eighth place in terms of charity donations, massively in front of many in the Western World and, of it's near neighbours,
only beaten by Ireland, Holland and Switzerland.

Think we are in different conversations. I am referring to Brit participation (in the widest sense) overseas and you

 

[RupertW]

As I said....can we be constructive here?

You are right - and the most constructive thing to do is to educate the Brexiteers to reverse this fiasco and get freedom of movement back for everyone. It will never work for small economically insignificant groups and it’s outrageously lacking in insight of how Britain looks right now to even try.

 

[Pavalijo]

I think that some are confusing a tourist visa with a work visa.

The U.K. already offers most if not all EU citizens to come to the U.K. for tourism for up to 6 months without requiring a visa. What was rejected was a reciprocal work visa.

The Schengen Zone countries have disagreed on more than one occasion over granting a longer tourist visa - some want to extend it but others have vetoed the idea.

However each country does have the competency to grant a longer tourist visa independent of the Schengen allowance. The CA campaign adds a little weight to the other campaign groups working in the countries with a sizeable British tourist presence that includes second home owners and those who take long lets in winter to escape the British winters (the “swallows”).

Would you buy a second home in Spain if you were restricted to 90 in 180? I have it in mind to do so within the next 10 years but will not be doing under those restrictions. That would be a much greater hit to the Spanish economy than we yachties could ever claim, but the CA campaign will hopefully add to the other campaigns and hopefully influence any decision makers contemplating linking a longer stay visa (or preferably visa free stay) to property ownership.

Portugal are apparently contemplating such a move, Madrid is apparently consulting with Turismos and the CA are preparing to run campaigns directly and indirectly in some of the countries of concern.

Note that there is already a 180 day tourist visa available in France. Costs about 100 euro ish and doesn’t count towards Schengen allowance. Something similar in Sweden.

So I’ll take a bet that other countries will follow, and hopefully they will do so with a simpler and less costly application process than France. And I’ll take a smaller bet that once several countries offer this then the Schengen rules will have to follow suit to avoid chaos at their borders.

 

[st599]

Caveat on the French 180 day visa. If you don't have hotel accommodation booked, you would need to show funds in excess of £22k for your 6 month stay.

 

[Ric]

There is zero chance that the Schengen treaty will be modified to allow an outside country to have special dispensation. All member states would have to agree, and the chances of them all agreeing or even bothering to meet up to discuss the issue is zero. The only way that it could change is if UK joins Schengen (which it can do even though no longer in EU - eg Switzerland is in Schengen). So the ball is in UK court to make that move if it wants.

The only other way that some more freedoms could be negotiated for UK citizens is if UK makes bilateral agreements with EU countries individually. Eg New Zealand negotiated 90/180 day visa free travel to many countries around the world (certainly every country you would ever want to visit for tourism) and in return the other countries nationals all get 90/180 day visas to visit NZ. So NZ passport holders can stay indefinitely in EU if they wish, just as long as they do not exceed 90/180 days in any single country. France has already agreed a 180 day visa for UK passport holders, and possibly other countries may agree something similar in the future.

That is about as constructive as things are going to get.

 

[nortada]

There is zero chance that the Schengen treaty will be modified to allow an outside country to have special dispensation. All member states would have to agree, and the chances of them all agreeing or even bothering to meet up to discuss the issue is zero. The only way that it could change is if UK joins Schengen (which it can do even though no longer in EU - eg Switzerland is in Schengen). So the ball is in UK court to make that move if it wants.

The only other way that some more freedoms could be negotiated for UK citizens is if UK makes bilateral agreements with EU countries individually. Eg New Zealand negotiated 90/180 day visa free travel to many countries around the world (certainly every country you would ever want to visit for tourism) and in return the other countries nationals all get 90/180 day visas to visit NZ. So NZ passport holders can stay indefinitely in EU if they wish, just as long as they do not exceed 90/180 days in any single country. France has already agreed a 180 day visa for UK passport holders, and possibly other countries may agree something similar in the future.

That is about as constructive as things are going to get.

Agree, bilateral agreements between countries is probably the only way to go and I doubt if the UK will make any running.

Countries (Spain, Italy, Greece or Portugal) may offer extended stay to boost the income from a larger expat population but I think that less than likely. It is just possible they will make it easy for Brits to get residency to boost income from a larger ex-patriot community. Unfortunately, both of this options could antagonize Brussels - their paymaster.

Possibly the best option for the British sailors is the base their boat in the EU and either get residency, which would permit unlimited stay in their host country and up to 90/180 days cruising in other EU countries or not bother with residency which would limit them to cruising a maximum of 90/180 days in the EU. They then could either park the boat and leave the EU or sail at least for the next 90 days in non-EU waters. Getting residency may appear to be the more attractive option but it is important to establish the full implications of residency before heading in that direction.

One final, option some countries may employ the Nelsonian Eye.

Unfortunately, when up and running, the European Travel Information Authorization System (ETIAS) and Schengen Information System (SIS) would make this more difficult.

 

[syvictoria]

There is zero chance that the Schengen treaty will be modified to allow an outside country to have special dispensation. All member states would have to agree, and the chances of them all agreeing or even bothering to meet up to discuss the issue is zero. The only way that it could change is if UK joins Schengen (which it can do even though no longer in EU - eg Switzerland is in Schengen). So the ball is in UK court to make that move if it wants.

The UK didn't join Schengen when part of the EU and so I very much doubt that the government is inclined to do so now. Also, I'm not sure that joining Schengen (if indeed possible) would necessarily do away with the visa issue, would it? Would we not have to join the EEA/EFTA too? A proposition already dismissed by the current government during the Brexit negotiations.

Freedom of Movement is a EU concept - a right of all EU (and EFTA) citizens. Schengen is an area/group of countries that have no internal border control and a common visa policy.

 

[Ric]

The UK didn't join Schengen when part of the EU and so I very much doubt that the government is inclined to do so now. Also, I'm not sure that joining Schengen (if indeed possible) would necessarily do away with the visa issue, would it? Would we not have to join the EEA/EFTA too? A proposition already dismissed by the current government during the Brexit negotiations.

Freedom of Movement is a EU concept - a right of all EU (and EFTA) citizens. Schengen is an area/group of countries that have no internal border control and a common visa policy.

The distinction between Schengen and EU Freedom of movement has become tightened as they years have gone by. Suffice to say, any new entrant to Schengen would have to abide by EU law (because of data sharing) which is streng verboten by the Brexiters. So forget any accession by UK to Schengen unless they agreed to rejoin EU. Even if the UK wanted to rejoin the EU . - and applied to do so, they would not be accepted as UK is not a democracy because the upper house is appointed by partisan favour - eg “Lord” Frost. UK will not be allowed to rejoin Shengen (let alone EU) until House of Lords becomes democratically appointed, and UK agrees to accept EU law.

Best UK can hope for to improve freedom of movement of its citizens isto negotiate bilateral agreements with individual sovereign states within the EU. Whatever that outcome, it will never be as good as it was before.

 

[goeasy123]

The distinction between Schengen and EU Freedom of movement has become tightened as they years have gone by. Suffice to say, any new entrant to Schengen would have to abide by EU law (because of data sharing) which is streng verboten by the Brexiters. So forget any accession by UK to Schengen unless they agreed to rejoin EU. Even if the UK wanted to rejoin the EU . - and applied to do so, they would not be accepted as UK is not a democracy because the upper house is appointed by partisan favour - eg “Lord” Frost. UK will not be allowed to rejoin Shengen (let alone EU) until House of Lords becomes democratically appointed, and UK agrees to accept EU law.

Best UK can hope for to improve freedom of movement of its citizens isto negotiate bilateral agreements with individual sovereign states within the EU. Whatever that outcome, it will never be as good as it was before.

Bilateral agreements are unlikely as most EU countries have become 'nationalist' enough for these to be politically difficult. Plus there haven't been any new ones recently and residency is a better (more economically rewarding) approach for the host country than a tourist visa.

 

[nortada]

Bilateral agreements are unlikely as most EU countries have become 'nationalist' enough for these to be politically difficult. Plus there haven't been any new ones recently and residency is a better (more economically rewarding) approach for the host country than a tourist visa.

Spent much of my working life, playing with bilateral agreements and unless the world has totally changed, Memorandums of Understanding (many of which are secret and sensitive) are still very much a way of life.

Why do you think residency is more rewarding than visitors with foreign currency to burn

Leaving that to one side, a combination of both must bring in the greatest income.