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Corrected time records....

flaming

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Well, this is new...

IRCRecords – Corrected time record breaking

Corrected time records - set a time over defined courses whenever you like, corrected with your IRC rating. Interesting concept, but given a lot of them are straight lines - e.g Needles- Cherbourg - I wonder how much rating gaming would take place...
 

TLouth7

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Nice! Sort of like Strava segments except you can't create your own (as far as I can see?) and you can't view them on a map.

They would have to get pretty popular to be worth setting up your boat specifically to challenge for one.

Edit: I have just seen the fee and need for a specific tracker. They aren't going for mass market appeal are they
 

flaming

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Edit: I have just seen the fee and need for a specific tracker. They aren't going for mass market appeal are they
Yeah.... The fee seems a little steep. Can see the desire for a specific tracker for the longer ones - but for the likes of RTI or Nab etc.... Strava like app would surely do. Just send a couple of pics showing you on the boat and not on a rib for verification...
 

st599

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Does the time walking around St Malo to the Douanerie and queueing to check in to France count on the Dinard race?
 

scruff

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Yeah.... The fee seems a little steep. Can see the desire for a specific tracker for the longer ones - but for the likes of RTI or Nab etc.... Strava like app would surely do. Just send a couple of pics showing you on the boat and not on a rib for verification...
I wonder if you could just use Strava?
 

Ingwe

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Potentially an interesting idea but they have made it too expensive and difficult. If you had an app based version aiming at short courses that you could do when you are out for a training session I can see it becoming quite competitive, the obvious local course for us in Plymouth would be from the western end of the breakwater to Mountbatten pier - it's about 2 miles on a most commonly downwind / reaching angle and is the type of fun blast that a lot of us would choose to do for fun when we are out practicing.
 

TLouth7

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I wonder if you could just use Strava?
Lots of people near me are posting SUP tracks on strava, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to add yacht tracks though sailing isn't quite the sort of exercise that strava is designed for.

The necessary step is a website or app that you can input your boat's handicap into to get the corrected time. Even better if it has a VPP that takes weather and tides into account.
 

RJJ

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Lots of people near me are posting SUP tracks on strava, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to add yacht tracks though sailing isn't quite the sort of exercise that strava is designed for.

The necessary step is a website or app that you can input your boat's handicap into to get the corrected time. Even better if it has a VPP that takes weather and tides into account.
Forget the weather and tides IMHO. Leave them as "part of the fun". Just have IRC handicapping and a class breakdown.

Isn't this train of thought a way of getting the numbers back up in quasi-racing offshore? You can get a few mates either for a "crack at the record, or for race against each other.

- "let's meet in Cherbourg on Saturday evening"; start and finish at waypoints A and B.

No expense, no formality, no race committee required. Pick your own start time. If the weather's not right, go a different way - at least you haven't spaffed hundreds of pounds on your entry fee.
 

TernVI

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People could have organised records using a simple phone app at very little cost.
But it didn't happen.
So somebody has dreamed up a nice website and a money making scheme.

Do we really want to get excited about a form of racing wholly against the clock, waiting for the optimum time to set off and hoping for the optimum wind?
Will we really look up to sailors who've spent weeks trying to pick the best time to go around the Isle of Wight?

I think it could be a worse farce than Bart's Bash, where we tolerate the meaningless results because it's once a year, a bit of fun, for charity.

And thren people will start moaning about yardsticks.
 

Birdseye

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Do we really want to get excited about a form of racing wholly against the clock, waiting for the optimum time to set off and hoping for the optimum wind?
Will we really look up to sailors who've spent weeks trying to pick the best time to go around the Isle of Wight?
I guess that if it appeals, then you do it. If it doesnt appeal then you dont.

We have two local races here in the Bristol channel, both of which are of the"pick your own start time" and sail down tide round an island or two and back. Both get a lot of entries
 

TernVI

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I guess that if it appeals, then you do it. If it doesnt appeal then you dont.

We have two local races here in the Bristol channel, both of which are of the"pick your own start time" and sail down tide round an island or two and back. Both get a lot of entries
I've done races like that, where you pick your start time, but you are all competing on the same day, in the same weather, on the same tide. The aim is to get to the mark as the tide changes. Would you do that race and be impressed by someone who happened to post the best time by waiting for a day when it's a reach both ways and the tide was biggest?

It's kind of the point of sailing, that the race course is different every day, even if you're sailing triangle courses on a pond.

The other point is, these people are claiming 'records' but only those carrying the approved trackers are eligible. Lots of people will be saying 'I've sailed that course faster in a Sonata, but I wasn't carrying their tracker'. There are well documented timings for courses like round the IoW, can you call it a record if you don't beat those?
 

flaming

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Would you do that race and be impressed by someone who happened to post the best time by waiting for a day when it's a reach both ways and the tide was biggest?
That's the point of records though... The guys setting the transatlantic records spend weeks waiting for the perfect weather window... Ditto the Jules Verne guys. That's not the aspect of this that is problematic I think.

I can see the RTI record becoming a fairly popular one to go for. especially amongst the small boats. But maybe not at that price... The cross channel ones.... I have my doubts, because I think they'll get gamed. If I was taking that seriously it would be fairly simple to set a fairly tough time to beat. I'd re-rate the boat with only the storm jib, not any of the normal jibs, and only the A5 kite. I'd then have a very low rating for a 32 foot boat that planes in strong winds. Then I'd wait until I had about 25 knots from about 135 TWA for the crossing. Probably average 12-13 knots for the crossing with a rating something like a Sigma 33 at a guess.

The out and back or round an island courses are much safer from that sort of thing. But realistically you're only going to set records when it's breezy, so after a while the only way to get a competitive time will be to do some rating surgery to remove your biggest light wind sails.

I can see why they might want trackers compulsory for the longer races, but for courses like the RTI, Nab etc. Phone tracking has to be the way to go... Make it so that on a decent forecast half a dozen boats can go at short notice.
 

Mudisox

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On a par with sailing across the Atlantic in a bathtub or "rowing" across the trade wind route.

Clubs organise racing to give their members a reason to go out and sail, mainly, and the members join, to meet up with folk with similar outlooks. Otherwise go solo cruising.
 

TernVI

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That's the point of records though... The guys setting the transatlantic records spend weeks waiting for the perfect weather window... Ditto the Jules Verne guys. That's not the aspect of this that is problematic I think.

I can see the RTI record becoming a fairly popular one to go for. especially amongst the small boats. But maybe not at that price... The cross channel ones.... I have my doubts, because I think they'll get gamed. If I was taking that seriously it would be fairly simple to set a fairly tough time to beat. I'd re-rate the boat with only the storm jib, not any of the normal jibs, and only the A5 kite. I'd then have a very low rating for a 32 foot boat that planes in strong winds. Then I'd wait until I had about 25 knots from about 135 TWA for the crossing. Probably average 12-13 knots for the crossing with a rating something like a Sigma 33 at a guess.

The out and back or round an island courses are much safer from that sort of thing. But realistically you're only going to set records when it's breezy, so after a while the only way to get a competitive time will be to do some rating surgery to remove your biggest light wind sails.

I can see why they might want trackers compulsory for the longer races, but for courses like the RTI, Nab etc. Phone tracking has to be the way to go... Make it so that on a decent forecast half a dozen boats can go at short notice.
You're missing the whole point of their business model.
They need to own the process, make the record depend on them and their tracker.
No sane person gives a toss for rating-optimised 'course records'.

There's too many event-organiser klingons making money out of sport and not really contributing much.
Perhaps someone should set up a cheap phone tracker based alternative of facebook and tell these people where to go?
 

flaming

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You're missing the whole point of their business model.
They need to own the process, make the record depend on them and their tracker.
No sane person gives a toss for rating-optimised 'course records'.

There's too many event-organiser klingons making money out of sport and not really contributing much.
Perhaps someone should set up a cheap phone tracker based alternative of facebook and tell these people where to go?
Oh I'm not missing the point of the business model at all... I agree with you entirely on that aspect.

I can, sort of, see the appeal of the concept though. There are enough people out every weekend trying to set top Strava segments on their bike to see that the basic idea would gain some traction if it was cheap and accessible. I can, for example, see quite a lot of fun in going for a record between say the jack in the basket off Lymington and Prince Consort off Cowes on a day with a big SW wind. But it's unlikely to be anything other than a last minute thing to do on a breezy day when the regular racing is blown off. Which is why the tracker part of it is not going to work.
 

Mudisox

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All very well except you have to get upwind either at the start or end of the run. Especially at Springs.
 

c.buck

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Nice! Sort of like Strava segments except you can't create your own (as far as I can see?) and you can't view them on a map.
If strava did yachting... This has my vote, as long as there is as much data as possible surrounding it. Last thing we need is a poxy website/app that only tells you your corrected time. Let's think wind angles, wind speeds, tidal factors, etc. etc. If played right, these guys and girls could go way beyond just IRC records. They could start pulling together live data on every vessel and start reverse engineering what makes an IRC boat successful...
 

Buck Turgidson

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I noticed on "The sailing frenchman" you tube that they have similar segment records in the Classe 6.5 mini fleet. Gives you something to do on the way home or when you are looking for a training goal. Strava for boats is a great idea (I used to use it when I cycled more). But it should be cheap, accessible and fun.
They appear to have gone for expensive, exclusive. I wonder how many sailors like me have a Garmin in reach+? Perhaps Garmin ought to introduce an aquastrava app for us.
 

TernVI

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I noticed on "The sailing frenchman" you tube that they have similar segment records in the Classe 6.5 mini fleet. Gives you something to do on the way home or when you are looking for a training goal. Strava for boats is a great idea (I used to use it when I cycled more). But it should be cheap, accessible and fun.
They appear to have gone for expensive, exclusive. I wonder how many sailors like me have a Garmin in reach+? Perhaps Garmin ought to introduce an aquastrava app for us.
I can see some point in that, because the boats are all the same class.

If people want something which is 'cheap accessible and fun' then either some generous person or club has to run it on a non-profit basis, or you have to create a big market and take a few ££ from a lot of people.
In yachting, it's probably easier to take a lot of ££££ from a few people.

People are prepared to pay for things like Strava, because they get value from it, it helps their personal goals.
Where's the value in paying to be listed as 'not the record holder on corrected time'?
I'm happy to pay an entry for the RTIR, because it's a good day out and if we post a respectable time, it's a bonus, but the shorter my elapsed time (corrected or not) I think the lower I've been in the fleet.
 
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