Chain retrieval speed

[vyv_cox]

My retrieval speed, or lack of it, has never bothered me. I just use the engines to clear the moored boats alongside and then sort out the chain in my own time.

Richard

In calm conditions that's fair enough, although I amost never motor at all, use the weight of the chain (catenary!) to start the boat moving forward and then pull forward using the windlass. Different matter when it's windy. I have seen so many fouled anchors due to time taken hauling the anchor in.

 

[vyv_cox]

Same.

Maybe it's different in boats with a deeper chain locker and a better designed bow-roller than mine, but I would never want to be operating this powerful machine from a distance where I couldn't keep a close eye on any potential jams or collisions.

So far I've never had to weigh anchor in a situation where there was an obstacle so close down-wind or down-tide, and the wind or tide so strong, that we'd drift into it between the anchor leaving the bottom and me getting back to the cockpit.

Pete

For stern-to berthing a windlass control next to the Morse is the best aid there is. I control the boat entirely, drop anchor, motor astern while running out the chain, snub it about half a boat length out and motor against the anchor until we are tied astern. Meanwhile Jill can look after warps, step ashore if necessary, tie off to rings or bollards.

 

[cmedsailor]

For stern-to berthing a windlass control next to the Morse is the best aid there is. I control the boat entirely, drop anchor, motor astern while running out the chain, snub it about half a boat length out and motor against the anchor until we are tied astern. Meanwhile Jill can look after warps, step ashore if necessary, tie off to rings or bollards.

Yeap. That’s the Mediterranean way!!!
These wireless winch remote controls from ebay are perfect for the job ?

 

[prv]

For stern-to berthing a windlass control next to the Morse is the best aid there is. I control the boat entirely, drop anchor, motor astern while running out the chain, snub it about half a boat length out and motor against the anchor until we are tied astern. Meanwhile Jill can look after warps, step ashore if necessary, tie off to rings or bollards.

Yes, certainly. Different arrangements for different needs.

Pete

 

[RichardS]

In calm conditions that's fair enough, although I amost never motor at all, use the weight of the chain (catenary!) to start the boat moving forward and then pull forward using the windlass. Different matter when it's windy. I have seen so many fouled anchors due to time taken hauling the anchor in.

OK .... that's a different technique. I never use my windlass to pull the boat forward. It's strictly verboten on my boat.

Richard

 

[vyv_cox]

OK .... that's a different technique. I never use my windlass to pull the boat forward. It's strictly verboten on my boat.

Richard

It would be a pretty poor windlass that could not pull a moving boat! I can push mine swimming.

 

[prv]

I think it's often stated as prohibited to guard against numpties with no mechanical sympathy overloading the windlass by dragging a large boat at maximum speed into a strong wind or tide.

When single-handed, it's a lot easier under most circumstances to just pull the boat with the windlass - in bursts if necessary, using the weight of the chain - rather than try to coordinate manoeuvring and anchor-handling.

Pete

 

[RichardS]

I think it's often stated as prohibited to guard against numpties with no mechanical sympathy overloading the windlass by dragging a large boat at maximum speed into a strong wind or tide.

When single-handed, it's a lot easier under most circumstances to just pull the boat with the windlass - in bursts if necessary, using the weight of the chain - rather than try to coordinate manoeuvring and anchor-handling.

Pete

I agree that when single-handed then circumstances many require a different technique.

I guess the question is whether you would choose to use your windlass to pull the boat forward if you had someone on the bow to operate the windlass/watch the chain and someone on the helm to steer/operate the engine?

Richard

 

[vyv_cox]

I agree that when single-handed then circumstances many require a different technique.

I guess the question is whether you would choose to use your windlass to pull the boat forward if you had someone on the bow to operate the windlass/watch the chain and someone on the helm to steer/operate the engine?

Richard

Different free anchoring, when I always shunt the boat forward with the engine. In situations where there is a risk of fouling another anchor or chain I prefer to use the engine to an absolute minimum.

 

[RichardS]

Different free anchoring, when I always shunt the boat forward with the engine. In situations where there is a risk of fouling another anchor or chain I prefer to use the engine to an absolute minimum.

OK .... I'm still surprised that speed of retrieval is such an important issue for you as I've never given it a second's consideration but we shall agree to differ.

Richard

 

[vyv_cox]

OK .... I'm still surprised that speed of retrieval is such an important issue for you as I've never given it a second's consideration but we shall agree to differ.

Richard

What make of windlass do you have? Mine is a Maxwell, which I did not select for its retrieval speed but later found it to be the fastest on the market, or at least in the YM tests. When I see the trouble that slower windlasses cause I realise how fortunate I was.

 

[noelex]

Basically, given a choice between a windlass model with a higher gear ratio vs an otherwise identical model with a lower gear ratio I would choose the former. It will have more power. The retrieval speed will be slower, but I do not rate this as a particuarly important quality. However, if presented with a windlass with identical power but a higher retrieval speed why not choose the model with faster recovery? (Note: The above is somewhat simplified. In practice, the characteristics of the electrical motors matter as much as gearing.)

However, I would caution taking the windlass specs at face value especially when comparing different brands. They seem to quote line speed at different values. Some manufacturers quote line speed under no load, others at working load, continuous load or something else. This makes a considerable difference. Also the voltage during the test conditions is an important factor. Unfortunately, some manufacturers quote favourable, rather than realistic test conditions. Thus a faster on paper windlass may be slower in practice.

As an example, my current windlass has a line speed of 25m/s under no load (measured @25v) dropping to 14m/s at the working load (measured @ 22v) and of course 0m/s at the full rated load (measured @ 20.5v) . Some manufacturers would just quote the maximum no load speed, others the working load or continuous load and some would assume a higher voltage, with no voltage drop under high load. This voltage difference will considerably increase the relieval speed especially the working load numbers.

Compare like with like. The devil is in the details of the test conditions when the line speed was measured.

 

[prv]

I guess the question is whether you would choose to use your windlass to pull the boat forward if you had someone on the bow to operate the windlass/watch the chain and someone on the helm to steer/operate the engine?

Depends how much wind or tide there is. If there's not much, then I'm quite happy to let the windlass pull the boat towards the anchor. It doesn't show any signs of struggling to do so, so why not? If there's a stiff breeze or strong tide then I'll assist it with the engine.

Pete

 

[RichardS]

What make of windlass do you have? Mine is a Maxwell, which I did not select for its retrieval speed but later found it to be the fastest on the market, or at least in the YM tests. When I see the trouble that slower windlasses cause I realise how fortunate I was.

Mine's a Quick although I don't think that refers to the retrieval speed.

Richard

 

[lustyd]

Depends how much wind or tide there is. If there's not much, then I'm quite happy to let the windlass pull the boat towards the anchor. It doesn't show any signs of struggling to do so, so why not? If there's a stiff breeze or strong tide then I'll assist it with the engine.

Pete

Completely agree, if it's happy and there's no danger of chain jamming then all good. Of course, it also depends what people mean by pull the boat forwards. With mine I lift a couple of metres of chain at a time and the boat then drifts forwards of its own accord. I would not consider that pulling the boat on the windlass since none of the boat weight or movement is due to windlass movement.

The med techniques being talked about though I assume we're talking windlass as propulsion, but then I'd assume the chain would be straight and fairly tight to start, since the anchor is holding the boat off the wall, so in theory if you lifted the chain a bit then untie the boat would surge forwards past your neighbor anyway? I've never tried med mooring (well once, but that doesn't really count!). I feel like if there were a strong cross wind you'd control your boat with lines until well past neighbors just by ballancing anchor and shore line tension. Maybe that doesn't work in real life so perhaps someone with experience can explain why not?

 

[vyv_cox]

Completely agree, if it's happy and there's no danger of chain jamming then all good. Of course, it also depends what people mean by pull the boat forwards. With mine I lift a couple of metres of chain at a time and the boat then drifts forwards of its own accord. I would not consider that pulling the boat on the windlass since none of the boat weight or movement is due to windlass movement.

The med techniques being talked about though I assume we're talking windlass as propulsion, but then I'd assume the chain would be straight and fairly tight to start, since the anchor is holding the boat off the wall, so in theory if you lifted the chain a bit then untie the boat would surge forwards past your neighbor anyway? I've never tried med mooring (well once, but that doesn't really count!). I feel like if there were a strong cross wind you'd control your boat with lines until well past neighbors just by ballancing anchor and shore line tension. Maybe that doesn't work in real life so perhaps someone with experience can explain why not?

Yes. Normally I pull the chain to the windlass limit when we berth, chain bar tight. When we release stern lines the drop of the chain will normally move the boat forward about a boat length. Even in a good cross wind there is very little sideways movement, especially as we are usually one of the smaller boats there.

Once out of the line we would slide sideways quickly, which is when motoring is fraught with problems. Hauling the chain in quickly is now the optimum technique.

 

[Neeves]

It is sensible that chain retrieval speed is quoted on the basis of no, or minimal, load - as that is how the windlass maker advises you to use it. I think all manufacturers warn against using the windlass to move the boat and suggest motoring toward the anchor. The load therefore is the weight of chain hanging vertically, which is really not much (for a 8mm windlass). Quite how a windlass maker can guess how you might (mis)use the windlass, what sort of tension you will apply, is an impossible task.

When you are vertically over the anchor and waiting for the seabed to release I think the windlass maker assumes you will not expect the windlass to pop the anchor out but you will wait for chop to break it free (its worth applying a chain lock at the pop out time) - then you reach the point with maximum tension, the vertical length of chain, the anchor (often bigger than recommended) and the ball of mud carried. Again - how would you set a standard for all those variables.

The advice not to pull the yacht to the anchor seems sensible, you will presumably be running your engine anyway - to keep the power up - so why not use the engine - once the yacht is moving forward - momentum will do the rest. Windlass appear to be very robust and despite misuse and an absence of servicing (when was the last time you serviced your windlass? - the recommendation is every 12 months) they will last for decades. The advice not to use the windlass to pull the boat to the anchor is to protect you, the owner, from premature failure - if you have deep pockets it really does not matter. You will never bend the shaft, but you might damage the seals or the gearbox.

Think how you use your windlass - you don't follow the recommendations - but how often do you read of windlass failure specifically due to use as opposed to solenoid problems or corrosion in cables etc.

Your windlass should have been chosen, or recommended, on the basis of the size of the yacht and the size of the yacht commonly dictates the size of chain and anchor etc. The windlass will have been designed round that load + a safety factor. Having the appropriate windlass, with the necessary grunt, - why not opt for the fastest one - for the reasons given above. Frankly seems a no brainer.

If you are unsure about the size of the windlass that you should instal - it is very simple - send an email to the windlass maker, wherever in the world they are located - and ask. Provide the fullest information, anchor weight, maybe type, size of chain, yacht etc. The quality of the answer is indicative of the support you might receive in the future. Now compare the answers and compare the prices that you will need to pay to whoever the local supplier might be. All windlass makers have a technical department - use them. Remember that if you buy from the Muir, Maxwell or Lofran distributor - their recommendation will be biased to encourage you to buy - so send the email to each and then you can go to the distributor and tell them what you want - and be on a firmer footing when you negotiate the pensioners discount . I would not be too reliant on the chandler's recommendation - they sell a whole batch of stuff - how can they be experts in every item they sell. Their focus is on getting you out of the door with a box under your arm.

stay safe, take care.

Jonathan

 

[KompetentKrew]

I don't think retrieval speed makes any difference in the real world.

+1

I've anchored singlehanded with a manual windlass - it had a horizontal gypsy and you just wind the chain up using a winch-handle.

When the anchor tripped and failed to reset it was a nightmare, but it was fine most of the time.

I might have achieved chain removal at 8m or 10m per minute on a good day - on a bad day, subject to wind and tide making the job harder, much less.

 

[LadyInBed]

We've got two scenarios being debated here, deploying the anchor when Med mooring and use of engine during retrieval. The method of stern-to berthing described by Vyv is great if you have a 'two way' windlass, but unfortunately I don't, so deployment is done under clutch control which requires someone at the bow to control the chains speed. Also, weighing anchor on my boat chain retrieval also requires someone at the bow to distribute the chain into the locker so as to stop it piling up on the entry ramp and jamming the windlass.
Like others, I winch in some chain then use the weight of the chain to pull the boat forward then repeat the process. It's a slow procedure, hence having a windlass that will whip the chain in at the speed of light isn't necessary. A couple of times in strong winds I have put the engine into forward tickover to help the process but doing it solo is a PITA, if the boats speed starts to overrun the chain and causes the boat to veer off I have to nip back to the cockpit and go into neutral to get control again. These are the times when a crew is useful.

 

[geem]

We are fortunate that we have a large powerful windlass with a no load retrieval speed of 33m/minute. The windlass can easily pull the boat to the anchor but generally we nudge forward on the engine then the windlass does the rest unless it's blowing hard when more engine is used
The thing I think that is extremely useful in a windlass is being able to free drop the chain when the wind is howling and or there is lots of current. It's like being a bomb aimer on a plane! Just letting it go so it hits your chosen spot on a sandy seabed then using the wind or current to drag the chain out of the locker is a great feature