Buying in Europe

[pessimist]

Having walked away from a boat purchase due to lack of paper work we are now looking at a couple of boats in continental Europe. Would I be right in assuming that nothing changes between now and the end of the implementation period in terms of bringing a boat back to the U.K. or are we on a different regime from the end of this month?
Any thoughts?

 

[Trundlebug]

You're correct, no change until Dec 2020, after that who knows, it's still all TBA

 

[Hoolie]

I'm not so sure. Those of us who keep our boats overseas in the EU have to make sure we have proof of being in the EU on Brexit day ie 31 January 2020 to retain EU VAT paid status. Assuming this is correct, and it's widely reported, then VAT will have to be paid to HMRC on any boat imported from the EU after Brexit regardless of its current VAT status.

 

[Poignard]

I'm not so sure. Those of us who keep our boats overseas in the EU have to make sure we have proof of being in the EU on Brexit day ie 31 January 2020 to retain EU VAT paid status. Assuming this is correct, and it's widely reported, then VAT will have to be paid to HMRC on any boat imported from the EU after Brexit regardless of its current VAT status.

Presumably invoices showing 6 years of dry-sailing from yards in Brittany would satisfy that requirement?

 

[dune16]

I'm not so sure. Those of us who keep our boats overseas in the EU have to make sure we have proof of being in the EU on Brexit day ie 31 January 2020 to retain EU VAT paid status. Assuming this is correct, and it's widely reported, then VAT will have to be paid to HMRC on any boat imported from the EU after Brexit regardless of its current VAT status.

I think it's actually end of transition (currently end of Dec 2020) that you need to ensure you have proof of being in the EU to retain union goods status, not end of Jan as long as the withdrawal bill gets approved (looking likely now...). See below


Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

Consequences of the UK's withdrawal from the EU on recreational boats will concern not only customs but also have an indirect tax dimension. The relevant legal bases to which will be
further referred in this letter are: the Union Customs Code (UCC) - Regulation (EU) 952/2013 (OJ L 299/1 of 10.10.2013) - the supplementing Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/2446 (UCC-DA) (OJ L 343/1 of 29.12.2015) and the Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/2447 (UCC-IA) (OJ L 343/558 of 29.12.2015) for the customs issues. For indirect taxes it concerns the Council directive 2006/112/EC (the VAT Directive) (OJ L 347/1 of 11.12.2006).

Where the recreational boat has been released for free circulation at import in the EU or has been manufactured in the EU, it has obtained the customs status of Union goods.
After the UK's withdrawal from the EU or the end of the transition period in case a Withdrawal Agreement with a transition period is concluded, in general, any goods in the customs territory
of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods. This was also mentioned in a Brexit preparedness note from the Commission, published on 30 January 2018: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info...axation_en.pdf. Following the Brexit preparedness notice mentioned above, a specific notice on VAT was published on 11 September 2018: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info...ded-tax_en.pdf.

The customs status of a UK boat will depend on its location at that point in time: if the boat is located in an EU port or sails in EU territorial waters, it will keep its Union status; if the boat is located in the UK, its status will be that of a third-country boat when arriving in the territorial waters of the Union, i.e. it will be treated as non-Union goods. Customs controls for such UK boats will be the same as for boats coming from a third country.

We hope you find this information useful. Please contact us again if you have other questions about the European Union, its activities or institutions.

 

[The Professional]

Nothing changes until end of the year, and then we'll get told nothing changes for another year...

 

[Jim@sea]

Having walked away from a boat purchase due to lack of paper work we are now looking at a couple of boats in continental Europe. Would I be right in assuming that nothing changes between now and the end of the implementation period in terms of bringing a boat back to the U.K. or are we on a different regime from the end of this month?
Any thoughts?

Dont do as I did. I bought a boat in France and then brought it back to the UK.
When I came to sell it I really struggled as the boat was a make which was never imported into the UK.
I might have had a better chance of selling if the inboard engine was a Perkins or Volvo, but the engine was an Iveco.
If I was buying overseas again I would buy a UK boat or one that was sold throughout Europe.

 

[Hoolie]

I think it's actually end of transition (currently end of Dec 2020) that you need to ensure you have proof of being in the EU to retain union goods status, not end of Jan as long as the withdrawal bill gets approved (looking likely now...). See below

I hope you're right, but I think I'll do belt and braces and have proof for both dates.

 

[Hoolie]

Presumably invoices showing 6 years of dry-sailing from yards in Brittany would satisfy that requirement?

No, AFAIK it's midnight of the change-over day. A formal berthing contract from the marina or an overnight invoice may suffice.

 

[pessimist]

Thanks everyone, it seems confusion rules. (Nothing new there then!). I've also asked the RYA legal chaps for an opinion and will post again if anything comes of it.

 

[pragmatist]

I'm not so sure. Those of us who keep our boats overseas in the EU have to make sure we have proof of being in the EU on Brexit day ie 31 January 2020 to retain EU VAT paid status. Assuming this is correct, and it's widely reported, then VAT will have to be paid to HMRC on any boat imported from the EU after Brexit regardless of its current VAT status.

Just had an email back from the RYA Legal Dept (must say they have been extremely helpful over our private sale and queries about purchase). They refer to this article on the RYA web site discussing various "scenarios". In particular it looks as though VAT would NOT be payable if as a UK resident you return your boat to the UK. Personally I wonder if HMRC would really be that nice ???? Quote from the RYA article -


If my boat is lying in the EU27 at the time of a ‘no deal’ Brexit, will I be able to claim relief from VAT and import duty if I bring it back to the UK after Brexit?

HMRC has advised the RYA that plans have been made to replicate Returned Goods Relief (RGR) into domestic law in the event of a no deal. RGR allows those resident in the UK to return with their belongings (including pleasure boats) to the UK without paying customs duty or VAT as long as the items have not been changed since their departure and follow the guidance given in the Notice 236 Returned Good Relief.

The UK Government has undertaken that RGR will be available in respect of UK pleasure craft not moored in the UK on EU exit day. They may return to the UK after the exit and be subject to returned goods relief as long as the person responsible has evidence that the VAT was paid on the purchase of the boat in either the UK or the EU. The types of proof needed are shown in Notice 8. VAT accounted for in the UK would need to be shown in respect of vessels purchased after the date of the EU exit.

• Vessel owners not established in the UK can temporarily import their vessels using the rules set out in Notice 8.
• There is no need to have every UK boat back in the UK on EU exit day.

 

[pragmatist]

The bad news - from the same article relates to time you can spend on your boat after we leave -

After a ‘no deal’ Brexit will I still be able to spend the whole summer on my boat in the EU27?
The immigration situation in the event of a ‘no deal’ Brexit could be a hindrance. We assume that UK Citizens who are normally resident in an EU27 country will be able to stay, without penalty, although there may be caveats. Owners that are not resident in an EU27 country may be able spend significantly less time in the Schengen area than the boat can spend in the EU as the duration of stay for a third country national visiting the Schengen area is usually limited to 90 days in any 180 days period.
Information has been published on the country specific travel advice pages on gov.uk which indicates that, “The European Commission has proposed that in a no deal situation, if you are a British Citizen, you would not need a visa for short stays in the Schengen area or elsewhere in the EU. You would be able to stay for up to 90 days in any 180-day period. Visits to the Schengen area within the previous 180 days before your date of travel will count against the 90-day limit.”
The RYA has been lobbying hard to ensure that the inadequacy of the Schengen visa time frames for UK residents who keep their boats in the EU and who wish to cruise in excess of 90 days on Community waters is understood.

... which suggests to me that 3 months in any 6 months is all one would be able to spend there - presumably in 2021 (but not applicable in 2020 ?)

I'm certainly not sure, from what I've read, that the 90 in any 180 would be any different if we left with an agreed deal.

What do others think/read from this ?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The bad news - from the same article relates to time you can spend on your boat after we leave -

After a ‘no deal’ Brexit will I still be able to spend the whole summer on my boat in the EU27?
The immigration situation in the event of a ‘no deal’ Brexit could be a hindrance. We assume that UK Citizens who are normally resident in an EU27 country will be able to stay, without penalty, although there may be caveats. Owners that are not resident in an EU27 country may be able spend significantly less time in the Schengen area than the boat can spend in the EU as the duration of stay for a third country national visiting the Schengen area is usually limited to 90 days in any 180 days period.
Information has been published on the country specific travel advice pages on gov.uk which indicates that, “The European Commission has proposed that in a no deal situation, if you are a British Citizen, you would not need a visa for short stays in the Schengen area or elsewhere in the EU. You would be able to stay for up to 90 days in any 180-day period. Visits to the Schengen area within the previous 180 days before your date of travel will count against the 90-day limit.”
The RYA has been lobbying hard to ensure that the inadequacy of the Schengen visa time frames for UK residents who keep their boats in the EU and who wish to cruise in excess of 90 days on Community waters is understood.

... which suggests to me that 3 months in any 6 months is all one would be able to spend there - presumably in 2021 (but not applicable in 2020 ?)

I'm certainly not sure, from what I've read, that the 90 in any 180 would be any different if we left with an agreed deal.

What do others think/read from this ?

It all depends on what agreement is reached with the EU. If there really is an end to freedom of movement then the default position as I understand it is that the UK will be a 3rd country once it has left the EU at the end of transition period.

UK citizens will be treated the same way as Canadians, Americans and Australians - i.e. max 90 day stay in any 180 day period. Other restrictions will also apply, e.g. reason for visit must be declared and accomodation address will need to be given. Entry to the Schengen area will no longer just be a formality, it will be treated as a potential immigration risk with denial of entry at the border a real possibility - think drunken Easyjet flight to Malaga, boisterous stag do in Prague. Immigration officials at the country of entry will have the discretionary power to deny Brits entry to the schengen area - freedom of movement no longer applies.

Current rules for non-EU boats are here .... https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf

If your boat is EU VAT and import duty paid (EU goods) then none of the restrictions above apply to the boat. Flag state is irrelevant and totally seperate from the status of the goods.

PS: My boat used to be kept in Croatia under temporary import until they joined the EU. Resetting the 18 month time period was simply a case of going to the boat and clearing out of Croatia via customs at a port of entry, spend the day sailing out of sight of the customs officials (you can't go ashore again once cleared out so just head offshore) .. after a while, turn round and clear back in again at the same port of entry - (they are usually open 24 hours). It is normal practice and all non-EU boats in EU waters do this - the ports of entry, police, and customs officials are used to it.

PPS: The hidden Brexit Bonus is that UK citizens will be able to buy a VAT free ex-charter boat in the EU and keep it there under temporary import without ever paying VAT.

 

[RupertW]

Hmm...likely to be in Canaries or Caribbean then. Wonder what will happen. I don’t expect to sail boat to the UK but last 10 years in Med. I’m sure the wise people running the negotiations will have my best interests at the front of their minds.

 

[Hoolie]

I think it's actually end of transition (currently end of Dec 2020) that you need to ensure you have proof of being in the EU to retain union goods status, not end of Jan as long as the withdrawal bill gets approved (looking likely now...).

There's a none zero possibility the WA bill will stall in the House of Lords and we crash out at the end of this month. If you're affected make sure you have proof the boat is in the EU on the 31st January

 

[dune16]

There's a none zero possibility the WA bill will stall in the House of Lords and we crash out at the end of this month. If you're affected make sure you have proof the boat is in the EU on the 31st January

My new boat went be handed over to me until beginning of March so I'm stuck on hoping end of transition is the crunch date

 

[GeorgeTina]

Can anybody clarify the 90 days in any 180 days, eg. if I travel to my yacht on April 1st and stay for 90 days must I wait until October before I can return ? Or could I spend one day in (say) France the 1st of March then 89 days from 1st April ending at the end of June and then return 1st of September for a few weeks ?

 

[GeorgeTina]

Sorry a bit confused (I blame the wine) should have said a one day stay at the start of January to kick off the 180 period

 

[Stingo]

Sorry a bit confused (I blame the wine) should have said a one day stay at the start of January to kick off the 180 period

The wine sounds more interesting. Tell us more.

 

[ANDY_W]

If, for example, you were stopped today and questioned about your length of stay, the relevant period would be the past 180 days ending today.

In your question, if you stayed for 1 day ( 1st January ), the last day of the relevant 180 day period in which that day would be included would be 1st April. You would now have another 90 days commencing 2nd April and ending 30th June.

If you return on 1st September, the previous 180 day period ending on that day would have started on 2nd June. However, you have already stayed 28 days in June so, starting from 2nd September you would have 62 days stay left which takes you to 3rd November.

All this assumes that your periods of stay are not interrupted.

If I may, can I advise that it would be unwise to plan on leaving on the 90th day. Any unforeseen event might cause a delay leading to arrest as an illegal immigrant!