Buying a boat from the EU and Brexit Transition date (re:VAT)

[DavidJ]

Notice 8: sailing your pleasure craft to and from the UK

What documents will be required to provide proof of the UK VAT status on a used vessel?
UK residents should only use a vessel in the UK if they are in free circulation in the UK, as UK domestic goods. Included, as such, are pleasure craft with VAT paid or deemed VAT status valid at 31/12/20, located in Great Britain 31/12/20. Deemed VAT paid includes certain vessels that were in use as private pleasure craft prior to 1 January 1985 and were in the UK or EU on 31 December 1992.

Conversely, the same is true of EU VAT paid status if the boat lies in the EU on 31/12/20.

Also, from the CA slides:

View attachment 106311

Perfect
Thank you

 

[dunedin]

Yea - I think most of us saw that.
IIRC, the actual webinar was like Fred Karnos Army - took 15 minutes to sort out the technology.
Something that they should have done days before.
And when it came to the content, most and more had been discussed on here.

What would be interesting is if someone can confirm the facts now that there is a UK/EU deal.

No it didn’t. You must have been thinking about a different webinar (one of the RYA ones) Started on time with no issues (though there may have been a few people with local connection issues).
I believe it was thoroughly prepared and practiced, including the tech.

If you are a CA member, you will presumably be able to see any recent updates to the Brexit VAT pages.

 

[Hooligan]

All of the above symbolises the utter madness quite frankly of this situation. I always thought that our glorious leaders should be looking out for the welfare of their subjects. But no. They quarantine arrivals from various countries fair enough, but then issue travel advisories that negate most people’s insurance. So people who choose, as they have a right, to travel, get penalised, totally unnecessarily. I own a boat. It paid its VAT in the UK. It resides in the EU. But i cannot ever bring it back without paying again. What a load of absolute nonsense. Well perhaps I can say I am British again and feel better about it for some reason I still struggle with. Hey ho, all good, all is fabulous and fantastic and world beating so what’s to worry about

 

[Nito]

Hooligan,

Does returned goods relief RTR not apply in your case as you are the original exporter and remain the current owner?

 

[DavidJ]

Hooligan,

Does returned goods relief RTR not apply in your case as you are the original exporter and remain the current owner?

If your boat has been in the EU for 3 years and is still there then Hooligan is correct. There is a “generous” concession of a year to bring your boat back but that’s it after that, you are EU VAT paid not UK VAT paid, cant have both. See the earlier posting of the CA presentation slide.
I had the dream of when I retired to take my boat to the Med to cruise for many years. It happened for me but sadly our country has voted that you can’t do this any more.(unless you pay VAT to the EU of course)

 

[syvictoria]

All of the above symbolises the utter madness quite frankly of this situation. I always thought that our glorious leaders should be looking out for the welfare of their subjects. But no. They quarantine arrivals from various countries fair enough, but then issue travel advisories that negate most people’s insurance. So people who choose, as they have a right, to travel, get penalised, totally unnecessarily. I own a boat. It paid its VAT in the UK. It resides in the EU. But i cannot ever bring it back without paying again. What a load of absolute nonsense. Well perhaps I can say I am British again and feel better about it for some reason I still struggle with. Hey ho, all good, all is fabulous and fantastic and world beating so what’s to worry about

All is not lost in your particular case as I believe that HMRC have now conceded that RGR with special conditions will still be allowed:

HMRC _ Clarity at last on RGR and Special Circumstances

Very regretfully we don't have the 'right' to travel any longer it would seem, but I think you do have the right to return your boat to the UK at your convenience (assuming you purchased her in the UK, you still own her, and she has only been maintained and not substantially improved). Essentially, nothing has changed regarding RGR AFAIA.

 

[DavidJ]

All is not lost in your particular case as I believe that HMRC have now conceded that RGR with special conditions will still be allowed:

I can still only find reference to the 3 year rule. Can you cut and paste what the HMRC have now conceded to, that you refer to.
From your link I find
Time limits for returning goods
The goods must be returned no later than 3 years after they were exported in order to get this relief.

 

[syvictoria]

I can still only find reference to the 3 year rule. Can you cut and paste what the HMRC have now conceded to that you refer to.
From your link I find
Time limits for returning goods
The goods must be returned no later than 3 years after they were exported in order to get this relief.

It's in the very first post in the linked to thread:

HMRC _ Clarity at last on RGR and Special Circumstances

The post was made by Chris_Robb of the CA and starts:

The last response HMRC actually confirms that arriving back after more than 3 years abroad - you can Claim RGR . This is the answer

"The special or exceptional circumstances provisions will still be in RGR rules in the post transition period. Under these provisions HMRC could consider if it was reasonable to provide a waiver from the three year, rule if there were exceptional circumstances in a particular case."

This was email round 10 with HMRC and this time they have answered.

The post does go on to provide further info.

 

[Hurricane]

If you are a CA member, you will presumably be able to see any recent updates to the Brexit VAT pages.

The RYA are not in the same league as the CA.
The CA is far more capable, producing the concise advice that we need.

 

[DavidJ]

It's in the very first post in the linked to thread:

HMRC _ Clarity at last on RGR and Special Circumstances

The post was made by Chris_Robb of the CA and starts:



The post does go on to provide further info.

Thanks for going to the trouble of clarifying that. I still don’t get a warm glow though.

 

[syvictoria]

Thanks for going to the trouble of clarifying that. I still don’t get a warm glow though.

I think, essentially, the confirmation Chris obtained confirms that nothing has changed in regards to the actual laws/rules surrounding RGR pre- and post- Brexit. We just have to hope that the rules continue to be implemented in a consistent way! There's certainly plenty of precedent set.

 

[Nito]

So if I were to buy a boat from EU now, with vat paid in EU status, then import it and pay UK vat, would it then have vat paid status in both jurisdictions at resale or is it a forever game of paying vat (again and again) every time it’s sold from one place to another?!!

 

[Hooligan]

Hooligan,

Does returned goods relief RTR not apply in your case as you are the original exporter and remain the current owner?

Hi. I will probably never bring my boat back as am a confirmed med boater So my comment was just a frustrated rant (apologies) re the whole craziness of this situation. The sad thing is that as shown by all the confusion re the rules is that at the end of the day we are beholden to an interpretation of the rules by a body that probably doesn’t care too much about you or me, only on collecting tax. The whole concept of having to pay any tax on the same product twice regardless of how long it has been out of the country is ludicrous. If i buy a UK boat today, pay VAT, sail or motor to wherever and then come back in 10 years or whenever why should i ever have to pay again (Put aside rebuilds etc). If the new rules do indeed cover this then good although I was lead to believe that the 3 year rule stood but that HMRC had graciously allowed those who want to come back one year so to do. The issue of moving between the UK and EU is sadly self inflicted. I doubt too many on this forum can recall the good old days of having to report to customs posts every time one landed and show papers, passports etc etc. This sadly is now going to become the norm again. C’est la vie. I guess the price of reclaiming our fabulous, fantastic greatness . One question i do have is whether anyone who will keep a boat in the med plans to move registration to the EU eg Netherlands if they intend to keep their boats in the med. While this does not prevent or get around the 90/180 rules, or impact any VAT issues, it may prevent the possibility of endless stops by authorities who probably quite fairly will want to know the status of boats flying the Union Jack.

 

[Portofino]

Hi. I will probably never bring my boat back as am a confirmed med boater So my comment was just a frustrated rant (apologies) re the whole craziness of this situation. The sad thing is that as shown by all the confusion re the rules is that at the end of the day we are beholden to an interpretation of the rules by a body that probably doesn’t care too much about you or me, only on collecting tax. The whole concept of having to pay any tax on the same product twice regardless of how long it has been out of the country is ludicrous. If i buy a UK boat today, pay VAT, sail or motor to wherever and then come back in 10 years or whenever why should i ever have to pay again (Put aside rebuilds etc). If the new rules do indeed cover this then good although I was lead to believe that the 3 year rule stood but that HMRC had graciously allowed those who want to come back one year so to do. The issue of moving between the UK and EU is sadly self inflicted. I doubt too many on this forum can recall the good old days of having to report to customs posts every time one landed and show papers, passports etc etc. This sadly is now going to become the norm again. C’est la vie. I guess the price of reclaiming our fabulous, fantastic greatness . One question i do have is whether anyone who will keep a boat in the med plans to move registration to the EU eg Netherlands if they intend to keep their boats in the med. While this does not prevent or get around the 90/180 rules, or impact any VAT issues, it may prevent the possibility of endless stops by authorities who probably quite fairly will want to know the status of boats flying the Union Jack.

Thought about perusing a long stay visa ?
There are a lot of Italians “running “ if that’s the word U.K. red ensign flagged boats .
I had a pleasant conversation with the Gardia Finanza chaps last year when they “ did “ our jetty .Once he herd the eng accent lost interest with us .
How ever they were interested in the Italian speaking guys flying reds and went through the papers .
Apparently GF said they were English bank owned on part 1 with loan registered etc .Btw Ferretti, Galeons and Alfa marines .
Not the usual U.K. fairprinseeker suspects .
Infact the Italian with a phantom 50 flew the Italian flag .

No I would suspect if your flag and passport do not sync , you effectively wave a red rag at a bull .

 

[DavidJ]

Proof, if proof were needed, that my boat was there

 

[Hurricane]

John100156 managed to get out to Sant Carles just before New Year's Eve.
And he managed to find the time to organise some photographs with some other berth holders.
We had previously announced on SCMCHAT that we were arranging these photos and why.
The result was that 77 berth holders in Sant Carles wanted photos taken so John and his team were busy that afternoon.
John uploaded the photos to me and I inserted them into an electronic Photo Album which I published on the SCMCHAT forum.
The photos that we took were divided into three areas of the marina with a forth section containing images captured at the same time from the marina's webcam.
We have also written a declaration document that states the photos were in the Public Domain as of the 1st January 2021.
If you are interested, here is a link to the SCMCHAT Album containing the photographs taken.
Photographs

I have also been discussing the matter of proof with our marina manager who has been extremely helpful.
He asked for the list that we had gathered of the boats to be photographed and he will ensure that each one on the list receives a stamped marina certificate stating that the boat concerned was in the marina on the night of the 31st December 2020.

So, we at Sant Carles think that we have done enough to prove our boats were in the EU at the end of the transition period thus retaining their "EU Goods - Free Circulation" status.

 

[DavidJ]

As always very professional.
My marina pic is just a coincidently taken photo by one of the Empuribrava residence facebook group. Now and again my boat gets a snap which is always reassuring. I don‘t think mine will bear any scrutiny but any day soon I will have the official confirmation letter from the marina.

 

[nauticalnomad]

Not sure if its been answered before with regards with VAT.
But what are peoples thoughts on this?
If I am sailing a 50 year old boat thats VAT exempt and currently in the EU..
Am i still liable for VAT exemption after the 31st?
Do i have to all of a sudden pay the VAT now?
I never had to provide any VAT papers when asked upon entry as the boat was always pre VAT.
So the boat being VAT exempt 3 months ago should still be VAT exempt now....