Bilge pumps - What are they good for?

[PacketRat]

I'd be interested for views on bilge pumps.
The outlet for my bilge pump used to be in the transom. Having fitted a new aft bulkhead, I'd prefer not to cut through it. Simplest solution would be to drain into the cockpit, although it could equally easily drain onto the side deck through the cockpit coaming.
Conscious of the fact that my off soundings sailing experience is nil, I'm a bit wary about holding an opinion that the bilge pump is really only a convenience for keeping the bilges dry. For emergency use I'm favouring the frightened skipper with a bucket method.
The cockpit is half the original size with double the drainage capacity. I don't rate wet feet as an issue, so why drain overboard? Am I missing something?
Comments would be appreciated.
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Robin.

 

[TimBennet]

Cockpit drains are sized for the rapid draining of the cockpit if swamped etc. Discharging the bilge into cockpit means that at the time of greatest need,( eg when pooped and taken some below via the companionway, for example) the cockpit draining capacity would be compromised. For this reason the ISAF regulations for the preparation of race boats for offshore use specifically prohibits this practice.

As to the question about 'what is bilge pump' for you enter much more philosophical territory. If your bilge has a sump, then a pump is a convenient way of clearing relatively small quantities of water, perhaps accumulating from a leaking sterngland, chainplate, wet people below, etc. But if you have a flat bilge, a bilge pump is neither use nor ornament for this.

If you have a large ingress of water, eg lost propshaft leaving a one inch hole about 18 inches below the water line, then irrespective of the type of bilge, no amount of pumping with whatever sort of manual pump will cope. You have to fix the hole and then hit the buckets.

In violent conditions, a pump may be more usable from the 'braced position' than a bucket, but both methods require huge effort. So, especially if short handed, most people have an over optimistic expectation of their bilge pump.

Electric pumps and mechanical pumps can be effective as they get to work while you fix the problem. But they must have a continuous rating at both the lift head and pipe length applicable to your boat. Edson do several electrical conversions of standard diaphram pumps that I've seen do a useful job, and the Ericsson emergency pump has its admirers after proving it's worth in practice. http://www.aes.net.nz/ESP.HTMl

 

[Noddy]

On JAC08 I took a big manual pump that shifts water at a good rate of knots and doesn't rely on electrikery. The boat is a cat and the pump is mounted on a board with lots of tube so I can get at any part of the boat. Never used it.

Of the list of jobs that didn't get done before departure, I neglected to fit scavenger pumps. Little electric ones would have done. This meant that the level of water in the bilges was not sufficient to warrant getting out the big pump, but was enough to make life miserable.

Because of this I spent more time than I wanted to on my knees, mostly praying, but also clearing the bilges with a bucket.

So I agree that for emergency use the 'frightened man with a bucket' principle works. I even got a proper pump for emergencies. But the non emergency version - 'p1ssed off man with a bucket' is far less fun.

I'm keeping the big pump, and taking buckets. But I'm fitting little electric pumps this winter.

Paul

 

[PacketRat]

After a good long think on this, I'm going for the conventional wisdom and drain the bilge pump overboard /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif, although I don't have much confidence that it would prove much use in an emergency. It's a proper sized pump, but while preparing the boat I've hosed it down inside, and even though the quantity of water was not all that great - what a nightmare it was to pump out. And that was sitting in the cockpit with the boat on its trailer.
With two main bulkheads, and the engine and cockpit drains inside a watertight compartment, there are no remaining holes in the hull. I've removed the heads, sink drain and log, and fibreglassed over the holes. So it would take something like a collision with a shipping container to breach the hull. It's conceivable, so ought to be prepared for.
John's experience of successive knockdowns in Glayva in JC06 provides an insight into violent conditions. Statistically, given that two participants (competitors /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif) took the direct route, there's a 50% chance of such an event /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif He seems to have taken it all very calmly from his post. But thinking about it, I think Tim's right about the difficulty of bailing out with a bucket - the boat's rolling from gunwale to gunwale and you're trying to scoop up water while being battered by a mixture of clothing, chart tables, tins of chilli con carne and anything else that can get broken loose, and then launch it through the companionway.
Given my loss of confidence in either buckets or bilge pumps in the event of a leak that can't be quickly repaired, I'm glad I've taken the trouble to install the bulkheads. For hull damage that spans a bulkhead, then there's always the liferaft.
Because I'm a beginner, I don't feel I can go against accepted thinking. More experienced sailors will think differently, but we want to preserve the sea as an accessible wilderness and the tyro ought not to invite criticism. On balance, I view the bilge pump as a convenience in the event of a pooping or knockdown. Batten down the hatches and sit in the cockpit pumping out the nuisance water. Useless if there's a hole to plug, and something that could equally uncomfortably be accomplished with a bucket.
The inconvenience of the bilge pump is something I could do without. It's big and gets in the way, and it's two holes in the boat, even if not in the hull.
When not worrying about all this, I'm kind of hopeful that some of the time will prove enjoyable. One thing I like to do occasionally is get dry. Oh bliss. A little water moves out of the bilges when heeled and permeates anything against the hull sides, so I was pleased to read Paul's opinion of the virtues of scavenging pumps. With such things I doubt I'd ever use the main bilge pump, and maybe even one day I'd pluck up the courage to get rid of it.
Thanks for the comments. Very informative and helpful.
Robin.

 

[andlauer]

Bonjour
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Statistically, given that two participants (competitors ) took the direct route, there's a 50% chance of such an event He seems to have taken it all very calmly from his post.
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I suppose that I'm the second challenger !
I've also been knock down a few times, only probably not as violently than John. Sorry for your stats.
I've also been knock down in the return trip in a tropical storm cold front.
Sterenn keeps rather dry (not more weat than usual would be a more realistic term) in such conditions.
As being very wide the compagnon way keeps out of the water.
Eric /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Gargleblaster]

[ QUOTE ]
Batten down the hatches and sit in the cockpit pumping out the nuisance water.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
One thing I like to do occasionally is get dry

[/ QUOTE ]

When conditions are really bad the last place you want to be is in the cockpit, particularly if at any time during the crossing you would like to have some part of your body dry.

In 2006 I lay-a-hull for 36 hours in a F10 with 10 metre waves. As each wave broke over the boat a certain amount of water seeped in through my washboards. My only pump that could suck water out of my bilge was located in the cockpit and I wasn't going to go out there. My only recourse was to hand pump into a bucket which emptied into my sea toilet and then pumped out.

Since then I have fitted a hand pump that I can operate from inside the cabin. but my real problem is a flat bottom boat with no real bilge and strengthening braces laid over my keel that separate my four inch deep bilge space into four separate compartments. I still find it easier to get rid of small amounts of water by hand pumping into a bucket and sponging up the remainder.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I'm a beginner, I don't feel I can go against accepted thinking. More experienced sailors will think differently, but we want to preserve the sea as an accessible wilderness and the tyro ought not to invite criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it's the 'beginner' who, with fresh eyes, can see deficiences which escape those who have slavishly followed convention without questioning for years.
The fitting of radar reflectors (which don't ...), virtually invisible masthead tricolours, stern-mounted boarding ladders which are deadly in a swell, and lifelines the height of which only serve to ensure that you hit the water head-first are just four examples which readily come to mind.

I think you're right to question the usefulness of hand-operated bilge-pumps - which, with the exception of fitting them in open boats, in my view best fall into the 'better than nothing' category.
Colin

 

[Gargleblaster]

[ QUOTE ]
The fitting of radar reflectors (which don't ...)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to think they do work. I carry two radar reflectors a Sestrel on the mast and a raincatcher on the backstay. What did give me a lot of confidence was a Dutch ship came up behind me one evening and said they had been watching me on the radar for an hour. It was only a 3 metre swell and there was no rain about, but I was probably at about 15 deg of heel. the Dutch ship was doing probably 15 knots, which means he must have seen me from 10 miles away. I didn't quite have my tricolour on as I was waiting for three stars to appear as dusk deepened and I must admit I didn't notice the Dutch ship until he was half a mile astern [which was a good reminder to keep a look out astern as well when sitting in the cockpit enjoying a glass of wine as a sundowner].

 

[PacketRat]

Now we've got a 100% knockdown rate when you add in the return leg! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
The ISAF don't seem to specify a capacity for the bilge pumps, whereas they do have a minimum size for the buckets - two gallons. To my way of thinking, that tells a tale in itself. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
There's a good range of sound choices, thanks to the informed posts, which are a comfort.
Best of all, Paul will be delighted to know /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif that his scavenging pump idea will make him compliant with the rules, and again thanks to the ISAF in all its wisdom we also have the answer to that most vexing question of all. How many buckets?
It's two. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Now I think it's time for me to get back to the boatyard.
Great posts - hope to meet up one day.
Robin.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fitting of radar reflectors (which don't ...)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to think they do work. I carry two radar reflectors a Sestrel on the mast and a raincatcher on the backstay. What did give me a lot of confidence was a Dutch ship came up behind me one evening and said they had been watching me on the radar for an hour. It was only a 3 metre swell and there was no rain about, but I was probably at about 15 deg of heel. the Dutch ship was doing probably 15 knots, which means he must have seen me from 10 miles away. I didn't quite have my tricolour on as I was waiting for three stars to appear as dusk deepened and I must admit I didn't notice the Dutch ship until he was half a mile astern [which was a good reminder to keep a look out astern as well when sitting in the cockpit enjoying a glass of wine as a sundowner].

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to hear that yours have been reported to work OK at 15 degrees. The MAIB report into the sinking of the Ouzo were quite damning about the performance of radar reflectors in general. As the make of the Ouzo's reflector wasn't known, they tested 9 different makes of which 8 didn't meet their performance criteria (at 20 degrees).

Re: masthead tricolours - I followed a yacht into Ostend late last autumn during some heavy weather on a dirty night and although I could just make out where the yacht was at about half a mile (thanks to some cabin lights being on), his masthead tricolour was virtually invisible. I could just catch brief glimpses of it as he was rolling very badly. I doubt that I would have spotted it had I not already known where he was.
Colin

 

[CPD]

2 things ..........

As far as I am aware, ISAF has rules governing the diameter of cockpit drains.

I too made contact on the outward journey with a ship I picked up on AIS who said he had been watching me for over an hour. AIS reported him doing 18kts. I have a firell Blipper, so they must be doing some good. sea state at the time was smooth/slight.

 

[Noddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Best of all, Paul will be delighted to know /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif that his scavenging pump idea will make him compliant with the rules, and again thanks to the ISAF in all its wisdom we also have the answer to that most vexing question of all. How many buckets?
It's two. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Compliant with the rules - Oh Dear! - Can't fit those then.

Looks like I can only take one bucket - some hygene problems, but it should be OK.

Please don't tell us any more about these ISAF rules - it may compromise my safety at sea. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Paul

 

[2nd_apprentice]

[ QUOTE ]
he had been watching me for over an hour. AIS reported him doing 18kts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being curious I ran a few calculations: at 18kts he would've picked you up on the radar from a distance of ~25sm so his height of eye had to be 470ft. Now that's what I call a tall ship!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[080653]

Quote:
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The fitting of radar reflectors (which don't ...)


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I fitted a Tri Lens radar reflector on Golden Dragon but was somewhat sceptical about it until a large freighter came over the horizon on the return trip. He was heading straight at me and I was beginning to enter panic mode when he altered to pass about 1/4 mile to Starboard. I had a chat with the watch officer (the only one to reply in the whole venture!) who told me that he had picked me up on radar about 8 miles away and was curious that he could not get a visual as he got nearer, so he altered course to have a look!
He thought the reflector was very effective especially when he saw how small Goldie was but I wonder if this is an example of why NOT to fit one!!