Bilge Keel Alternatives

[nazarmuna]

I’m planning on getting back into yachting after a number of years of dinghy sailing. I plan to base the yacht in a marina (Cardiff or Portishead) but would like to be able to visit the smaller harbours of the channel. Looking around at suitable sailing yachts, I feel a bit limited by the bilge keel options although I can very much see the benefits of being able to dry out upright.

My questions are therefore: how limiting would owning a fin keel yacht in the BC be and would it be safe/wise to attempt to take the ground with a typical GRP lift keel yacht?

 

[jwilson]

I have sailed a lift-keeler in the BC and switched to a bilge-keeler specifically because some of the interesting places (Porlock, Lynmouth and Clovelly for instance) had quite sharp stony bottoms in places. Also even where sandy, if you dried out a modern Beneteau twin-rudder lift-keeler I'd worry about the rudders if there was a swell - I've dried out at Ilfracombe and Watermouth with a fair bit of surging and bumping as the tide went out and returned.

The ideal boat for the BC might be a Sadler 290 - see Sadler 290 archive data - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales - iron bilge keels yet very good performance

 

[Laminar Flow]

We use legs. Mount in minutes and do not have any impact on performance. I built them myself; they disassemble and can be stored in the bilge when not needed, one side has rungs so you can get back on board from the hard or the water. Total cost 150.-

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I have had two lift keel boats in the Bristol Channel. Both suffered damage due to sitting onto rocks etc. A deep or long keel in mud is fine, but my other two boats were bilge and Porlock and Watermouth beckoned. In Ilfracombe one can dry out on the wall but I myself would never do it with a fin. You will bump as tide falls and rises and fins are that bit more vulnerable.

My Cornish boat has legs but that wont suit most Bristol Channel moorings on the "English" side as they are not suited to mud - probably fine for Watermouth or even beaching in Barry Old Harbour if I ever return to BC, but you would not want to use them in a tideway such as Ferryside or even Saundersfoot

 

[nazarmuna]

Very interesting views - thanks all.

Coincidentally, the Sadler 29/290 is top of my list for a bilge keel-er. Possibly that, a Hunter Channel 27 or Moody 27/28/29 BK. I'm not a fan of the Westerlys, no offence to any aficionados, I'm just not keen on the styling.

My reason for deviating from the above is simply to have a little more performance. I'll be mostly day sailing and doing weekend trips due to current work and family commitments, with perhaps the odd week's holiday with my two teenage children. Therefore, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of comfort, stability and easy motion underway for a little more excitement.

One boat of particular interest is the Beneteau First 27.7. This has a lifting keel terminating in a lead bulb (on which the boat would sit) with a retractable rudder and beaching legs. My concerns, seemingly borne out by comments so far, are that this arrangement may not be too well suited to drying out on soft mud or where the boat may pound before coming to rest. This would then impose significant restrictions on the ports and anchorages I could potentially visit.

 

[Gelfie]

Why not look at a Southerly. Lifting keel set in a large grounding plate.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I have a fin in the BC and although I do have the hankering to dry out and visit places like Porlock etc now and then I always think you have to wait for HW to get out of places like that which means you've not got long to get where you want to go and would end up having to anchor off somewhere to wait for the tide to turn or just have a long sail whichever way the tide is going. Personally I'm much happier with the sailing ability of my fin with the thought of anchoring off/not visiting those places as I havent' got the time to spend more than a night or two away with a young family.

 

[Dutch01527]

Agree with post above. I have a shallow fin keel Dehler with legs sailing out of Cardiff. If I visit somewhere like Porlock I anchor off and do not use the legs. I would plan my trip back to Cardiff using the flood tide, if I was to wait for high tide or near high tide before leaving I would not get back to Cardiff easily, even more so with Portishead. I am also worried about an open location having too much swell and banging whilst it settles.

The legs are useful further down the channel when leaving at high tide if heading west.

 

[steveej]

You should look at a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 32 with lifting centre plate that site between two mini bilge keels and has twin rudders. Excellent upwind perfomance and fast and can dry out on hard sand in the right conditions (or sink into soft mud). They were built in the early noughties. It is what I am currently sailing and would be happy to dry out in ifracombe, watermouth etc. I wouldn't dry out in porlock though, but may be ok in the pool with the keel up.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

If a performance fin is your aim with actual visits to ports, you should not bother with Upper Bristol Channel.

 

[Snoopy463]

If a performance fin is your aim with actual visits to ports, you should not bother with Upper Bristol Channel.

Depends on the fin. There’s plenty of us that bumble around the BC with fins, albeit the older substantial ones like the Ballad and Achilles 9m. I rather like drying out in Ilfracombe against the wall. Granted that there is an amount of leaving at or near high tide and anchoring off to wait for the tide, but that is cruising for you rather than south coast marina hopping. Newer higher performance fins and modern “twin fin” bilge keelers may be more problematical as they are more lightly constructed, but Sadlers, Moodys and Westerlys are more akin to the brick privvies that I mentioned above.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Depends on the fin. There’s plenty of us that bumble around the BC with fins, albeit the older substantial ones like the Ballad and Achilles 9m. I rather like drying out in Ilfracombe against the wall. Granted that there is an amount of leaving at or near high tide and anchoring off to wait for the tide, but that is cruising for you rather than south coast marina hopping. Newer higher performance fins and modern “twin fin” bilge keelers may be more problematical as they are more lightly constructed, but Sadlers, Moodys and Westerlys are more akin to the brick privvies that I mentioned above.

My comments related to Upper Bristol Channel i.e. the brownish water bit above Foreland or Mumbles. However I agree a sturdy fin is manageable though would not advocate a relative newby just launching into drying out in Ilfracombe. I have seen cleats snapped by surge and one flung high into a shop front, and worried bilge keel owners rising at dawn to inspect their craft on the moorings after a storm.

I am no racer and have little use for lightly built modern racer/cruisers and would not want to be in one in a blow until one gets up to 37ft say

 

[Snoopy463]

Blimey, I must have led a sheltered life! The good thing about mooring bilge and fin keel boats in the coffee coloured parts of the BC is that the mud is quite deep and boats “dry” out to their waterline in soft mud. Safe as houses in storms, far safer than when they are afloat. Not very good for walking ashore though.

 

[nazarmuna]

Once again, thanks to everyone for your comments.

The point about drying out restricting your departure time is an interesting one and would apply to the sort of trips I would be likely to do.

Regarding the mud-laden upper channel; surely, unless you have the spindliest of high aspect fins, the soft mud would be an asset. Notwithstanding watching out for stray rocks that could damage the hull.

I fully appreciate the virtues of bilge keels but what I am grappling with is: given something like the Beneteau First 27.7 with lifting bulb keel and legs (pictured), what sort of options would I have for stop-overs in the BC?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Once again, thanks to everyone for your comments.

The point about drying out restricting your departure time is an interesting one and would apply to the sort of trips I would be likely to do.

Regarding the mud-laden upper channel; surely, unless you have the spindliest of high aspect fins, the soft mud would be an asset. Notwithstanding watching out for stray rocks that could damage the hull.

I fully appreciate the virtues of bilge keels but what I am grappling with is: given something like the Beneteau First 27.7 with lifting bulb keel and legs (pictured), what sort of options would I have for stop-overs in the BC?

View attachment 99925

Well the trouble is where? On the English and Cornish Side: Uphill if you dont mind dry at an angle perhaps but reckon it might damage. Minehead but not worth it. Watchet Marina if operative. Watermouth OK but needs nerves to get in and no fall back if Ilfracome out, anchoring in Combe Martin poor. Ilfracombe NO NO NO. And that means if on English side you cant easily get to Padstow. I wouldnt dry in St Ives as pounds but one can row ashore.

On the Welsh Side: Cardiff Lagoon afloat, I would cautiously dry out in Barry Old Harbour on a very still day, obviously Barry Main Harbour mud but you cant get ashore. Porthcawl Masrina nice but need rising tide so not much good for going down along. Swansea Marina, anchoring in Oxwich, mostly forget Camarthen Bay, but Saunderfoot and Caldey anchored off, you might risk Tenby to dry but I would not. All of Milford Sound.

Basically with that rig its marinas or anchoring off, and you cant get into most marinas except on rising tide which means down along and wait 3 or 4 hours for the rise. The only all tide all weather havens are Cardiff and Swansea

 

[Snoopy463]

Once again, thanks to everyone for your comments.

The point about drying out restricting your departure time is an interesting one and would apply to the sort of trips I would be likely to do.

Regarding the mud-laden upper channel; surely, unless you have the spindliest of high aspect fins, the soft mud would be an asset. Notwithstanding watching out for stray rocks that could damage the hull.

I fully appreciate the virtues of bilge keels but what I am grappling with is: given something like the Beneteau First 27.7 with lifting bulb keel and legs (pictured), what sort of options would I have for stop-overs in the BC?

View attachment 99925

Can’t honestly see something of that construction lying against a wall with a wooden plank against the gunwhales. Sorry but you should choose the boat and sail where it is suited or choose the sailing area and get a suitable boat. ?

 

[nazarmuna]

choose the boat and sail where it is suited or choose the sailing area and get a suitable boat

That's a good way of putting it and pretty much in line with what I was asking. I know the capabilities and limitations of a standard bilge keel'er but what I'm trying to find out is what would or wouldn't be possible if I was to go for an alternative - such as the above.

oldmanofthehills - that a pretty comprehensive answer, thanks.

 

[jwilson]

Hard to imagine a more unsuitable boat for cruising the BC than a First 27, though terrific to sail.

 

[Birdseye]

I’m planning on getting back into yachting after a number of years of dinghy sailing. I plan to base the yacht in a marina (Cardiff or Portishead) but would like to be able to visit the smaller harbours of the channel. Looking around at suitable sailing yachts, I feel a bit limited by the bilge keel options although I can very much see the benefits of being able to dry out upright.

My questions are therefore: how limiting would owning a fin keel yacht in the BC be and would it be safe/wise to attempt to take the ground with a typical GRP lift keel yacht?

After several bilge keelers and a cat, I bought my current fin keeler with the objective of racing out of Cardiff. The way it has worked out, I am not any longer doing much racing and the fin keel is a real bind. The only places I can visit without drying out are Portishead, Swansea and Milford. Its a pain going round to the south coast because I cant comfortably stop before Padstow since ideally you need a falling tide and a tail wind in which conditions Lundy isnt a good anchorage. Combe is useless because anchoring over low water leaves me so far out in the harbour mouth that I am not really in Combe at all. In short, if you want to potter round the Bristol Channel then a fin is out.

So is a drop keel IMHO. IN one of my bilgies I once dried out just off Portishead waiting for a tide up the Avon. Sat in the cockpit I glanced over the side to see an anchor shat sticking out of the mud just 6 inches from my hull. I tried to move it thinking it would be a weak and rusty bit of scrap but it wasnt. Had my boat sat 6 inches to the side I would have been holed, and thats the problem with many areas in the BC. Its often post industrial with scrap metal, old bikes, shopping trolleys etc on the bottom - I wouldnt want to risk a drop keel as a routine. Plus of course some places like Porlock have a rocky bottom.

Sorry but there really is no alternative to a bilgie for places like Porlock. Such boats are now gettiong on a bit but can be found in good nick. I had a Moody 336 at one stage and in many ways thats a really good boat. I raced it and it was excellent. Only shortcoming was a relatively shallow cockpit thanks to a good aft cabin.

 

[38mess]

Like I have said a few times on here, if I had my sailing time again I would base myself as far west as possible, I finished up in Milford haven, like a different world. No need for keel worry.