"barging"

[Birdseye]

Got a promo email from UK sailmakers this morning and it included this video on "barging". Now I admit to being at best a club racers and NHS at that so I really didnt see anything much wrong with the behaviour of the culprit boat in the video. Squeezing into the smallest gap near the end of the start line is almost a way of life for everyone in our fleet and certainly without the exagerrated bearing away of the offended party in this video.

So when does squeezing into a gap become barging in your view?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Got a promo email from UK sailmakers this morning and it included this video on "barging". Now I admit to being at best a club racers and NHS at that so I really didnt see anything much wrong with the behaviour of the culprit boat in the video. Squeezing into the smallest gap near the end of the start line is almost a way of life for everyone in our fleet and certainly without the exagerrated bearing away of the offended party in this video.

So when does squeezing into a gap become barging in your view?

It's not crystal clear, but L need not have given W room and could have forced W out. W didn't look like he was going to change his plan though, and L probably had to avoid contact. I think L then over reacted, but I wasn't there.

Barging is not ok.

 

[tsekul]

My understanding is that. If any of the leeward boat need to alter their course to avoid contact then you can be protested. It is not clear whether the leeward boat would have struck the boat that was barging, he seemed to think so and was making it clear he was taking avoiding action. He could of ploughed on and hoped for the best, but if he had stuck the boat and caused damage or injury he could be protested also.

Boats cost a lot to repair! You have to be 100% there is space or its a game of chicken. If you have a beat up old boat and the person to leeward has a brand new boat I would guess you may win that game.

 

[RJJ]

030s or so before the start, boats were on collision course and W was obliged to keep clear of all L boats; she made no attempt to do so; there was nothing preventing her from luffing and tacking out.

All L boats were entitled to steer up to head to wind until the start, as long as W had time and opportunity to keep clear, which she did (at least 30s worth, as above). After the start, they were entitled to remain above close-hauled (if, as it appears, the overlap was created "instantaneously" from abeam due to W being on such a broad reach and the boats closing at wide angles) or at least to sail their close-hauled course (if the overlap was created by the L boats coming from clear astern the W boat).

In all cases, any L boat forced to sail below close-hauled, before or after the start,was fouled.

There is no such thing as water at a starting mark.

The L1 boat that bore away was perhaps exaggerating and being over-cautious, however she may have noted the other L2 boat below and slightly ahead; perhaps (in the unfair situation that W placed her in) only a hard duck was sufficient to avoid a collision with L2 and was therefore the prudent course.If you look at positions 20s after start, W and L2 were very close, so L1 was probably right.

W should take a penalty, retire or be protested. And even then should buy L1 a stack of beers because L1s start was totally trashed.

The PS to this sort of thing is as always: this shouldn't be tolerated in any fleet at any level. The severity of sanction may differ of course; friendships don't need to be destroyed and a beer/handshake may well be enough. But even at Club level, everyone needs to know that W behaviour is unacceptable, needs remedying, and not copying. It's just more fun if everyone learns and follows the rules; apart from which maybe next time it'll be windy. This incident in a F5 could risk a 5 figure repair and personal injury. Either we all follow the rules, or we just call it bumper boats, which few of us can afford to play.

 

[TernVI]

The video loses something without the sound I think, but essentially you can see most of the boats on the RHS head up about 15 degrees as they cross the line.
So a lot more than one of them are reaching down to the mark with no rights to water.
Whole fleet needs shaking up.
Or was the situation created by a windshift shortly before the gun?

 

[flaming]

I was a little surprised at the video used to illustrate barging. Whilst I think he probably did foul, I can think of a whole load of examples that are clearer. In fact the "barger" in that video is using what is sometimes a good tactic in a less than chamnpionship level fleet, especially when the committee boat is set up at the "wrong" end of the line and there is a weather going tide.
Under that circumstance it's quite likely that the bulk of the fleet will be early so will bear off down the line and open up a little gap to pop into for a boat hovering as they were. Worst case scenario the gap isn't there and you get a 2nd row start but are able to tack off straight away. Decent tactic if your 1st beat strategy is based on going hard right. Looks like the barger thought there was a gap, but L disagreed. Under that circumstance you should probably take your turns.

 

[savageseadog]

It looked a fairly smart move, there was a hole and he went for it. It quite often pays to find a clearer bit of the start line though.

 

[michael_w]

Doh! Wrote in the wrong thread.

Watching the clip again, there's just enough room for the barger to sneak in. There's a good half a boatlength from the buoy. The leeward boat didn't shut the door in time and panicked.

 

[flaming]

Doh! Wrote in the wrong thread.

Watching the clip again, there's just enough room for the barger to sneak in. There's a good half a boatlength from the buoy. The leeward boat didn't shut the door in time and panicked.

You could certainly argue that from the video. Which makes it an odd video to choose to illustrate barging in my opinion.

 

[Mudisox]

I seem to see more starts and leeward mark rounding than most folk as a RO. We hear and see the confusion.
One of the reasons that committee boats are normally stationed at the starboard end when windward start is order of the day, is that it is more easy to adjust the line by anchor line length, and also there is a better reason for folk to avoid the bunching at that end with a solid boat to hit. [Not that they kept away from me last year]. One should adjust the line to give fair chance of folk to move away from what is thought of as the favoured end. Attaching the spare mark behind the boat does help though.
I encourage those ROs I mentor, to look at the potential snarl up at least 30secs before the start, record on their tape, [or over VHF even better,] who is on the lay line, and who is going to have a problem getting in.
You can always ask to hear the tape or see the video from the Committee boat at a hearing, and all fleets, even the Pros, can learn from that information. It is not just on the water judges who can better see a situation.
As flaming notes, there was no barging in the video, someone left a gap, maybe as a result of arrogant bullying - and so maybe more a case of rule 69?

 

[michael_w]

Rule 69 seems a bit excessive, it's more for blatant cheating and similar IMHO

 

[TernVI]

I seem to see more starts and leeward mark rounding than most folk as a RO. We hear and see the confusion.
One of the reasons that committee boats are normally stationed at the starboard end when windward start is order of the day, is that it is more easy to adjust the line by anchor line length, and also there is a better reason for folk to avoid the bunching at that end with a solid boat to hit. [Not that they kept away from me last year]. One should adjust the line to give fair chance of folk to move away from what is thought of as the favoured end. Attaching the spare mark behind the boat does help though.
I encourage those ROs I mentor, to look at the potential snarl up at least 30secs before the start, record on their tape, [or over VHF even better,] who is on the lay line, and who is going to have a problem getting in.
You can always ask to hear the tape or see the video from the Committee boat at a hearing, and all fleets, even the Pros, can learn from that information. It is not just on the water judges who can better see a situation.
As flaming notes, there was no barging in the video, someone left a gap, maybe as a result of arrogant bullying - and so maybe more a case of rule 69?

I would have thought broadcasting your opinion over the VHF was a little dubious?
Is there really anything in the video which supports a claim of bullying? It just looked like a poorly laid line or a late windshift and a bunch of sailors who were not displaying the finest of talent.

 

[TLouth7]

It looks to me like the boat that took avoiding action was fouled. They started with at least some overlap on the leeward boat whose stern they ducked, and the barging boat ended up somewhat further aft than that boat. Thus the barging boat ended up parked pretty much in the exact position that the fouled boat would have been in.

The barging boat also did a truly terrible job of rounding up once they had barged in; at 1:45 you can see them still sliding sideways, less than two boatwidths from the leeward boat. If the fouled boat knew anything about the capabilities of the fouling boat then she made a good call of getting out of the way. Even if there was a space the barging boat did a bad job of using it.

It's worth noting that according to the skipper of the fouled yacht the barging yacht was yelling "Sea room, sea room, sea room" as it approached. This doesn't exactly give confidence that they know the rules, which in turn would lead me to expect that they might not sail perfectly or predictably. Does that have any impact on whether rules have been infringed?

 

[Birdseye]

Interesting comments. The video showed a long start line and a small fleet by comparison with what we normally have to manage, so it seemed to me that there was lots of room for manoeuvre. And the barger and bargee seemed to be well away from any possible contact. In fact it reminded me a biot of the spectacular tumbles you see in football when someone is looking to influence the ref. Gamesmanship maybe?

But perhaps more to the point, we do seem to have a game of chicken at the start in our club races. OK we are I guess very much at the bottom of the racing scene but the issue of barging has never ever come up. Maybe it only happens if you have black sails?

 

[TernVI]

Barging is more common in club racing than at higher standards.

 

[flaming]

Barging is more common in club racing than at higher standards.

Mostly because at higher standard events you will just get held until your options are to ram the committee boat or tack out.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Barging is more common in club racing than at higher standards.

Not recommended at mine. Words will be had.

 

[Mudisox]

I take your points but:
1. I have an open mike whilst taping what I see, [not my opinions].
2. I understood that words from W were spoken which were not correct, and aggressive.
3.The line looked as if it had plenty of port bias, so your last point is probably the most correct.
Letting the fleet know what the RO see is controversial but certainly aids less experienced fleets. It also saves lots of restarts. I believe most folk want to go sailing not do endless starts.

 

[michael_w]

U flag the best way of getting a fleet away cleanly. Why don't big boats use a gate start for big fleets?

 

[TernVI]

U flag the best way of getting a fleet away cleanly. Why don't big boats use a gate start for big fleets?

Gate start would be a farce in a handicap race?
Big boats don't tend to have big OD fleets.