are foiling yachts a step too far?

[Birdseye]

I am very definitely not a tacnophobe, but I cant help but think that foiling yachts are just a step too far. Bit like F1 cars with all their current wings and even the ground effect of the fan car, they lose any connection with real life sailing boats. Going to be interesting to see how they go on the long distance races but I would have thought they were an invitation to disaster.

What do you think? Are they really yachts? What defines a yacht? What if evertually they lose all contact with the water and become a low level glider type contraption?

 

[flaming]

I am very definitely not a tacnophobe, but I cant help but think that foiling yachts are just a step too far. Bit like F1 cars with all their current wings and even the ground effect of the fan car, they lose any connection with real life sailing boats. Going to be interesting to see how they go on the long distance races but I would have thought they were an invitation to disaster.

What do you think? Are they really yachts? What defines a yacht? What if evertually they lose all contact with the water and become a low level glider type contraption?

I think it's a good point. I would love to have a go in something like a foiling IMOCA, but I do worry that the drive to foil more generally will be at the expense of fleet numbers, both because of the cost and also because of the amount of time that you have to put in to master such a craft.
I have a friend who is an extremely good sailor. As in has won multiple national champs in multiple dinghy classes good. He got a moth, but sold it after 6 months as he said he didn't have the time to put into it to get over the stage in the learning curve where he was breaking something every time he went out.

If we want to grow the sport in the amateur arena, there needs to be classes with a relatively low bar to entry, both in terms of cost but also in terms of the amount of time that a half decent sailor has to put in to be able to hang with the pack. In terms of yacht racing it's probably more about the cost, but there is still an issue surrounding going too complicated. The Farr280 is a case in point. Interesting boat, but with hydraulics mast jack etc it's a lot to learn, and I think that put a lot of potential owners off.

 

[Birdseye]

Away from the south coast there is an issue of numbers and classes, and foilers are only going to make this worse. Since handicap systems are a comromise at best, one design is the best form of racing and might well be the only approach for foilers. Can IRC cope with foils particularly when designs are developing fast?

But my dislike is that somehow they arent yachts. They have lost any relationship to the sort of thing we all sail. Even more than the tope end of IRC, they are really a form of wallet racing.

 

[flaming]

Away from the south coast there is an issue of numbers and classes, and foilers are only going to make this worse. Since handicap systems are a comromise at best, one design is the best form of racing and might well be the only approach for foilers. Can IRC cope with foils particularly when designs are developing fast?

But my dislike is that somehow they arent yachts. They have lost any relationship to the sort of thing we all sail. Even more than the tope end of IRC, they are really a form of wallet racing.

I'm only aware of one yacht, the DSS equipped infinty 46, Maverick, that is regularly racing IRC events with a foil. They seem to do ok, but they are a high budget campaign playing with the TP52s etc. I don't think there are, yet, any smaller foilers racing under IRC regularly. The odd figaro 3 maybe.

And yes, I agree that foilers racing non foilers in the years to come is going to be an even more extreme form of planing sports boats racing displacement C/Rs.

 

[Wansworth]

Racing in places like the Solent or any confined waters will lead to too many collisions as ordinary yachtsmen will be driven off the water by a fleet of 50 mph so called yachts blasting a path on a quite Sunday afternoon

 

[Birdseye]

And yes, I agree that foilers racing non foilers in the years to come is going to be an even more extreme form of planing sports boats racing displacement C/Rs.

I dont see how that can work except in long distance open water type events. Same situation as with multihulls

 

[LittleSister]

I think they're fine, provided they're preceded by someone swimming carrying a red flag.

 

[TernVI]

I think if we turned the clock back to about 1965, this discussion would be the same, if you cut'n'paste 'multihull' for 'foiling'.

There is a place for foiling in sailing, just as there is for multihulls.
But will it ever replace displacement monohulls as the mainstay of racing? I think not.

 

[flaming]

I think if we turned the clock back to about 1965, this discussion would be the same, if you cut'n'paste 'multihull' for 'foiling'.

There is a place for foiling in sailing, just as there is for multihulls.
But will it ever replace displacement monohulls as the mainstay of racing? I think not.

My fear is that the sport of yacht racing is in pretty serious decline right now. Anything that further fragments the fleets we still have is an issue.

 

[Wansworth]

Would they operate under seaplane regulations,whatever they may be?

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Moths have been foiling for years.


Next!

 

[Laminar Flow]

As a pure sailing machine I find them thoroughly fascinating and as a tool I'm sure the Nelson's of their day would have sent their dispatches north with one of that ilk, rather than the good old Pickle.

Are they a yacht? Who cares and, in their way, they are no more elitist and expensive than the 12m class, never mind a J-class.

For those who still want to race on a budget (a relative term, I know), there are still plenty of one-design classes available.

I presently doubt foilers will ever become a mom and pop cruiser, although I know Little Sister is looking at foiling his LM, but on the upside, I still get to sail with my wife.

 

[dunedin]

Motor boats have had stabilising foils for years. Foils which reduce heeling (as oppose to trying to fly) would be a good addition to a cruising yacht, as sail faster and more level.

 

[TernVI]

My fear is that the sport of yacht racing is in pretty serious decline right now. Anything that further fragments the fleets we still have is an issue.

Perhaps the problem is with the existing range of racing machines rather than foilers?

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Motor boats have had stabilising foils for years. Foils which reduce heeling (as oppose to trying to fly) would be a good addition to a cruising yacht, as sail faster and more level.

not so simple unfortunately. Reduce the heel and you increase the load on the rig.

 

[dunedin]

not so simple unfortunately. Reduce the heel and you increase the load on the rig.

I guess you design a rig to match the anti-heeling dynamics - hull form, keel ballast, water ballast ..... and foil lift, if any.

 

[Wansworth]

Speed is surely not the only reason for yacht racing......

 

[LittleSister]

Foils which reduce heeling (as oppose to trying to fly) would be a good addition to a cruising yacht, as sail faster and more level.

A foil which was keeping the boat more upright than it would have been will increase drag, so won't necessarily mean more speed. Whether it increases drag more than a lump of lead dangled far below, or a beamy firm bilge, I wouldn't know (and suspect 'it depends').

not so simple unfortunately. Reduce the heel and you increase the load on the rig.

That's normally exactly what you are trying to do: increase the power of the sails.

 

[Birdseye]

not so simple unfortunately. Reduce the heel and you increase the load on the rig.

Never mind that - you dont get lift without drag. Not much of an issue for a Mobo but for a wind powered boat its a different matter. It would definitely slow the boat down just as wings slow down the merc F1 car unless you had enough lift to lift the hull clear of the water reducing drag.

 

[flaming]

Perhaps the problem is with the existing range of racing machines rather than foilers?

If you saw the various threads I have started about cruiser racers over the last couple of years, you would see that I agree!