ARC

[Ningaloo]

Being quite unkind I would imagine the owner of a Hanse 588 wouldn't know what a pintle was if you stuffed it up his arse let alone be the sort of person into a bit of bodging ( had to be careful with the spell checker there)

I would say very unkind! I guess the majority of larger Hanses do end up in the charter market, however those private owners (like myself) may be looking for a fast boat that can be sailed single handed or with a lightweight crew. This does not equate to inexperience! I have been sailing for almost 50 years, I have owned four boats over the past 25 years, I have raced, crossed oceans but now mostly look for a comfortable boat to cruise. I am usually sailing alone or with inexperienced crew. Many of the Hanses crossing the Atlantic will be sailed two up (or possible a couple with young children). Hanse are certainly "entry level" boats at the lower price end of the market but this does not mean that they are lacking in much other than solid wood cabinet work or bespoke interior layouts. The rig (Selden), steering (Jefa), electronics (B&G) are what you will find on a boat costing many times the price. Take a look at the Hanse owners forum and you will find that we are just as keen to do a bit of DIY upgrading (what I think you mean by bodging) as owners of MABs.
You'll also find several examples that have Hydrovane autopilots fitted (offset) despite the fold down bathing platform.

 

[Blueboatman]

We used to drill a 25mm hole through, near the aft edge of the rudder .
thus is the shaft stayed intact but the quadrant/cables/tiller failed at least a bridle could be attached for some control of steering
I had a boat with an aluminium rudder stock , they were well known for snapping
I rebuilt the rudder proactively and sold the old one as a spare to someone who couldn’t face making a whole new rudder ( not soooo difficult )

wihout a handy spare rudder or set of transom pintles or powerful self steering or indeed a stout tube that could be fed down the rudder shaft aperture and a mini rudder plate bolted to it , I am not sure what I would have done in this situation

BUT I would certainly have thought about it before leaving
Rudders and masts eh?

 

[rotrax]

We used to drill a 25mm hole through, near the aft edge of the rudder .
thus is the shaft stayed intact but the quadrant/cables/tiller failed at least a bridle could be attached for some control of steering
I had a boat with an aluminium rudder stock , they were well known for snapping
I rebuilt the rudder proactively and sold the old one as a spare to someone who couldn’t face making a whole new rudder ( not soooo difficult )

wihout a handy spare rudder or set of transom pintles or powerful self steering or indeed a stout tube that could be fed down the rudder shaft aperture and a mini rudder plate bolted to it , I am not sure what I would have done in this situation

BUT I would certainly have thought about it before leaving
Rudders and masts eh?

The hole is already there on all Island Packets, bored and sealed when the rudder is made.

Such a simple precaution, should be standard on all serious boats.

 

[Blueboatman]

The hole is already there on all Island Packets, bored and sealed when the rudder is made.

Such a simple precaution, should be standard on all serious boats.

They are highly reputable boats
Pearson used aluminium solid stock a lot but they did seem to suffer after 20 years - possibly antifouling paint metallic content didn’t exactly help !

 

[kof]

That’s a great idea. Would love to see that standard on boats.

We used to drill a 25mm hole through, near the aft edge of the rudder .
thus is the shaft stayed intact but the quadrant/cables/tiller failed at least a bridle could be attached for some control of steering
I had a boat with an aluminium rudder stock , they were well known for snapping
I rebuilt the rudder proactively and sold the old one as a spare to someone who couldn’t face making a whole new rudder ( not soooo difficult )

wihout a handy spare rudder or set of transom pintles or powerful self steering or indeed a stout tube that could be fed down the rudder shaft aperture and a mini rudder plate bolted to it , I am not sure what I would have done in this situation

BUT I would certainly have thought about it before leaving
Rudders and masts eh?

 

[Wing Mark]

If the rudder stock is still in the hull and still attached to the blade, there's really not much excuse for not being able to steer with a temporary tiller.
I recall playing with this on someone's 45 ft race boat in the late 90s.
We used a tackle from the end of the tiller to the toe rail or a cleat.

No need for holes in the blade only accessible by swimming.

If the rudder blade and stock no longer function, you have a bigger problem.
Totally different scenario.

People used to talk about steering oars made from the spinny pole and a floor board.
I think someone even tried it, in F2 in Flat Water?

 

[Bajansailor]

The disabled Hanse yacht Charlotte Jane III is showing up on the ARC tracker but they mention it is in 'stealth mode' - what does this mean?
Her position still appears to be shown on the map - almost halfway between the Cabo Verdes and St Lucia.
World Cruising Club

Providing that she stays afloat and that she continues to supply power to the tracker, I am sure that there will be keen interest in trying to salvage her, especially so once she gets closer to the Windies (if somebody has not already snaffled her by then).

One poster above mentioned the difficulties that will be experienced when trying to tow a yacht without a rudder.
The crew of the J 44 'First Light' were in a similar situation in 2006 when their rudder stock broke while 1,000 miles east of the islands.
They tried to jury rig a rudder, but with no success.
The converted MFV motor sailer Ros Ailither was in the vicinity, and offered to tow them - but they eventually gave up as it was proving too difficult, and a decision was made to transfer the crew of First Light (and the contents of their fridge and freezer, which were warmly welcomed by the Ros Ailithers) on to Ros Ailither and abandon First Light.
This is written up in the Ros Ailither's Blog here -
Trawler Travels: January 2006

As noted in the Blog, Ros Ailither proceeded to Barbados, and I presume that she dropped off the crew of First Light here.
It is a shame that the news of the abandonment was not more widely known then, as I am sure that there would have been many interested parties here (and in the other islands) keeping an eye out for her to eventually arrive.
And arrive she did - exactly 4 weeks later she washed up on the east coast of Barbados. And nobody saw her approach. She must have bounced over a reef or two on the way in, and started to break up soon after she came ashore.
I posted about her here on the Forum -
'First Light' ashore at Barbados

 

[PeterWright]

Without reading all the reports available on this unfortunate event, there seem to me to be two distinct possibilities here:

1) If the memory of Rotrax (post#40) is correct and the rudder stock failed allowing the lower part together with the rudder blade to fall through its bearing to Davey Jones, leaving a large hole in the hull more or less at the waterline, it's credible to me that abandonment was the only viable option left. The real question then is whether failure of the rudder stock is a reasonably foreseeable event, I certainly do not consider failure of our stainless steel rudder stock with a lower rudder bearing on a skeg to be reasonably foreseeable in my world of European waters cruising. Of course, an emergency tiller would be of no use when the rudder stock and blade have parted company with the vessel - to protect against this would require some means of sealing the hole and a means of steering entirely independent of the main rudder (e.g. a wind vane system).

I have no experience of aluminium rudder stocks but it seems to me a slightly bizarre material choice for the job - even if an argument can be made for it on a new yacht, how will it behave over a 40 year life?

2) If the rudder stock remained intact and in its bearings, it seems to me that failure of the linkage between the wheels and the rudder stock is a reasonably foreseeable event, perhaps more so with the complexity of a two wheel system, so prudent preparation would include provision of an emergency tiller which could be mounted directly on the stock and operated to steer the yacht in a seaway. I would expect this system to be exercised in a seaway before attempting an ocean crossing.

If Hanse have published any view on these events they would make interesting reading. It seems to me that yacht builders too often remain silent on failures of their vessels - an attitude not tolerated in the automotive world.

Peter.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Without reading all the reports available on this unfortunate event, there seem to me to be two distinct possibilities here:

1) If the memory of Rotrax (post#40) is correct and the rudder stock failed allowing the lower part together with the rudder blade to fall through its bearing to Davey Jones, leaving a large hole in the hull more or less at the waterline, it's credible to me that abandonment was the only viable option left. The real question then is whether failure of the rudder stock is a reasonably foreseeable event, I certainly do not consider failure of our stainless steel rudder stock with a lower rudder bearing on a skeg to be reasonably foreseeable in my world of European waters cruising. Of course, an emergency tiller would be of no use when the rudder stock and blade have parted company with the vessel - to protect against this would require some means of sealing the hole and a means of steering entirely independent of the main rudder (e.g. a wind vane system).

I have no experience of aluminium rudder stocks but it seems to me a slightly bizarre material choice for the job - even if an argument can be made for it on a new yacht, how will it behave over a 40 year life?

2) If the rudder stock remained intact and in its bearings, it seems to me that failure of the linkage between the wheels and the rudder stock is a reasonably foreseeable event, perhaps more so with the complexity of a two wheel system, so prudent preparation would include provision of an emergency tiller which could be mounted directly on the stock and operated to steer the yacht in a seaway. I would expect this system to be exercised in a seaway before attempting an ocean crossing.

If Hanse have published any view on these events they would make interesting reading. It seems to me that yacht builders too often remain silent on failures of their vessels - an attitude not tolerated in the automotive world.

Peter.

To save you actually reading both the ARC report and earlier posts in this thread.
First one wheel connection failed, then a day later the other with apparently some bolts associated with the quadrant failing and rendering the emergency tiller either unable to be attached or inoperative (it's not clear) The rudder stock did not fail although there is a well publicised report of one on a smaller Hanse doing so ( The report of this was linked in an earlier post) Unless the boat is recovered or someone from the boat took pictures the true reasons for the failure and the inability to use the emergency tiller will never be known.

 

[roblpm]

So is there a consensus on whether a Hydrovane would have prevented abandonment? Should I start saving 5k towards one for my as yet fictional yacht? It does seem to provide 2 functions, that of steering the boat when the autopilot fails, and of steering the boat when the main rudder fails?

(Well at least for say a 40 foot yacht? Maybe bigger than that is an issue.)

 

[capnsensible]

So is there a consensus on whether a Hydrovane would have prevented abandonment? Should I start saving 5k towards one for my as yet fictional yacht? It does seem to provide 2 functions, that of steering the boat when the autopilot fails, and of steering the boat when the main rudder fails?

(Well at least for say a 40 foot yacht? Maybe bigger than that is an issue.)

The hydrovane is the dogs doohdahs. Never tired, never late on watch and never complains. Worth every penny.

 

[Seven Spades]

The disabled Hanse yacht Charlotte Jane III is showing up on the ARC tracker but they mention it is in 'stealth mode' - what does this mean?
Her position still appears to be shown on the map - almost halfway between the Cabo Verdes and St Lucia.
World Cruising Club

Providing that she stays afloat and that she continues to supply power to the tracker, I am sure that there will be keen interest in trying to salvage her, especially so once she gets closer to the Windies (if somebody has not already snaffled her by then).

One poster above mentioned the difficulties that will be experienced when trying to tow a yacht without a rudder.
The crew of the J 44 'First Light' were in a similar situation in 2006 when their rudder stock broke while 1,000 miles east of the islands.
They tried to jury rig a rudder, but with no success.
The converted MFV motor sailer Ros Ailither was in the vicinity, and offered to tow them - but they eventually gave up as it was proving too difficult, and a decision was made to transfer the crew of First Light (and the contents of their fridge and freezer, which were warmly welcomed by the Ros Ailithers) on to Ros Ailither and abandon First Light.
This is written up in the Ros Ailither's Blog here -
Trawler Travels: January 2006

As noted in the Blog, Ros Ailither proceeded to Barbados, and I presume that she dropped off the crew of First Light here.
It is a shame that the news of the abandonment was not more widely known then, as I am sure that there would have been many interested parties here (and in the other islands) keeping an eye out for her to eventually arrive.
And arrive she did - exactly 4 weeks later she washed up on the east coast of Barbados. And nobody saw her approach. She must have bounced over a reef or two on the way in, and started to break up soon after she came ashore.
I posted about her here on the Forum -
'First Light' ashore at Barbados

I bet the boat will have been stripped of everything by a fisherman before it is salvaged.

 

[Bajansailor]

The hydrovane is the dogs doohdahs. Never tired, never late on watch and never complains. Worth every penny.

Absolutely! We have had two over the years.
On the first boat, in the 80's, the main rudder seized up (steel boat + rust = problems) , and for a while we would go sailing just using the Hydrovane rudder with a tiller on the little stub tiller. The rudder is a high aspect and efficient foil, so it is very effective, even for manoeuvering under engine with a tiller.

 

[Bajansailor]

I bet the boat will have been stripped of everything by a fisherman before it is salvaged.

Possibly - although from her last position she would appear to be on the western edge of where the fishing vessels are shown on Marinetraffic, so they might not have seen her.
MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic

The last position report for Charlotte Jane II on the Yellow Brick tracker is from 4 days ago - surely it would have been a good idea to leave the tracker on? Or maybe it ran out of power as well.
I would have thought that they must have a solar panel operating surely, that could at least supply power for a tracker and / or an AIS transmitter (?)
Does anybody have a subscription to Marinetraffic, and can look her up to see if she is still transmitting out in the Atlantic?
Ship CHARLOTTE JANE III (Sailing Vessel) Registered in United Kingdom - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 0, MMSI 232011746, Call Sign MBZV5

 

[capnsensible]

Yeah I think the vessel will have to drift a long way on the north equatorial current, possibly for many months to find fishermen.

 

[dunedin]

Possibly - although from her last position she would appear to be on the western edge of where the fishing vessels are shown on Marinetraffic, so they might not have seen her.
MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic

The last position report for Charlotte Jane II on the Yellow Brick tracker is from 4 days ago - surely it would have been a good idea to leave the tracker on? Or maybe it ran out of power as well.
I would have thought that they must have a solar panel operating surely, that could at least supply power for a tracker and / or an AIS transmitter (?)
Does anybody have a subscription to Marinetraffic, and can look her up to see if she is still transmitting out in the Atlantic?
Ship CHARLOTTE JANE III (Sailing Vessel) Registered in United Kingdom - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 0, MMSI 232011746, Call Sign MBZV5

The yellow brick tracker used for ARC is generally powered by an internal battery, and not connected to the ships battery systems. It is basically standalone, issued at the start of the event and typically strapped on the pushpit. Not sure how long the battery lasts, but. Would expect a few months.
It is not an AIS so I would assume would not show on AIS web sites like MarineTraffic. It would normaly show on the ARC / yellow brick tracker page, but they could easily suppress this if they want to keep secret.

 

[Goldie]

So is there a consensus on whether a Hydrovane would have prevented abandonment? Should I start saving 5k towards one for my as yet fictional yacht? It does seem to provide 2 functions, that of steering the boat when the autopilot fails, and of steering the boat when the main rudder fails?

(Well at least for say a 40 foot yacht? Maybe bigger than that is an issue.)

I’d suggest that the Hydrovane steers the boat as the first choice (under sail) and not just when the autopilot fails. You then have a choice of using the main autopilot or attaching a tiller pilot to the Hydrovane giving you two autopilots for redundancy or, to use the tiller pilot on the Hydrovane in very light airs as it’ll be less power hungry. Yes, if the main steering fails, the Hydrovane offers an alternative using wind, tiller pilot or manual tiller, all depending of course on the nature of the main failure. If the water is pouring in where the rudder stock used to be, or the rudder is jammed hard over then your problems probably won’t be overcome by the Hydrovane!

 

[dunedin]

I’d suggest that the Hydrovane steers the boat as the first choice (under sail) and not just when the autopilot fails. !

Most modern autopilots are massively better at steering than a hydrovane, particularly downwind. Indeed the better ones are generally better than most human helms - as a consequence of development on things like short handed round the world race boats. They are so good that some racing rules prohibit the use of an autopilot for fully crewed racing, as the human helms would be disadvantaged.
We don’t know why the Hanse was not able to use the autopilot, or indeed the emergency tiller, when the wheel steering failed, but presumably that will emerge in due course.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Most modern autopilots are massively better at steering than a hydrovane, particularly downwind. Indeed the better ones are generally better than most human helms - as a consequence of development on things like short handed round the world race boats. They are so good that some racing rules prohibit the use of an autopilot for fully crewed racing, as the human helms would be disadvantaged.
We don’t know why the Hanse was not able to use the autopilot, or indeed the emergency tiller, when the wheel steering failed, but presumably that will emerge in due course.

In the context of offshore cruising the wind vane wins hands down it requires no current to run and if maintained and used (set up correctly) will steer a sub 50 foot boat in most conditions, it would for sure have problems where the boat dropped into the trough of long period and high waves where it would lose the wind but other than that it steers effectively, you don't need micro second minor adjustments on a cruising boat.

 

[dunedin]

In the context of offshore cruising the wind vane wins hands down it requires no current to run and if maintained and used (set up correctly) will steer a sub 50 foot boat in most conditions, it would for sure have problems where the boat dropped into the trough of long period and high waves where it would lose the wind but other than that it steers effectively, you don't need micro second minor adjustments on a cruising boat.

Each to their own opinion, but the world has moved on a lot in the past 10 years.
Most 40 foot plus blue water boats, including ARC boats, have substantial electric power demands - the autopilot is not necessarily one of the bigger demands. Most trans Atlantic boats these days will be running at least one fridge, probably a freezer, powering electronic displays, AIS, often radar, charging multiple devices and sat phones, running a water maker and probably an inverter for the hot water for daily showers for all crew members.
Consequently they will have solar power, almost certainly some form of hydro generator (eg Watt&Sea) and probably a generator as well.
The autopilot is relatively efficient and amazingly effective. Many will carry a spare ram.